I did. I used to be VERY Pro-Choice and now I only believe in abortion under the strictest of circumstances. What changed? Seeing one of my best friends year, after year,after year, mark what would have been milestones in the life of the child she aborted when we were in college (I was 23 and she was 22). Watching this has been heart breaking for me.

I live in Metro DC and I can tell you that DC is NOT the murder capital of the world and nor has it been since the 80's. New Orleans has the distinction now.

Personally, I LOVE everything about DC except the fact that the worst women drivers I've ever seenin my life live in it's suburbs.

So, responding to erdoc:

I wasn't saying that I know the lives of everyone in the country. I'm saying that the argument (as you put it) "for some, *any* change is worth a try...for some, things really can't get much worse" - is silly. I think it's GREAT if people want IMPROVEMENT, but begging for *any* change (especially when they have NO idea what the candidates policies are) is the act of a politically ignorant person. If someone is well-educated about Obama's positions (which few are, even senators...see link below - just for giggles) and they believe his *policies* (not his orating skills, or his smile) will change their lives for the better, that's fine. What burns me up is when people get all melodramatic about "Oh, whoa is me! I want free healthcare, I want free food, I want the government to pay for my mortgage..." and have NO idea how he's going to pay for his promises, and don't have the political knowledge to even consider the bigger picture.

It can ALWAYS be worse. When people demand ANY change, they better be careful what they ask for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGeu_4Ekx-o

Ha! As if the woman who refused WIC would take the Hilton! Honestly, it's just the health care with a lot of these exceptionally hard-working people. You cover that, and the rest is doable. My grandmother lived for 20 years on just a Social Security check. (paid off mortgage, Medicare for health care, didn't eat or drive a whole lot) Health care is an extremely (EXTREMELY) big issue right now, since those insurance companies have really just gone berserk. (Hello, malpractice reform?) Even my little family, who is insured, has issues. Our insurance only pays 90% of a hospital fee. My son fell off the monkey bars last year, broke his humerus, and had to wait till the next morning to get the surgery to get the pins in. Our share, all told (remember, overnight stay, general anesthesia, etc): $800. We, uh, really don't have that kind of money. We paid it, but then my husband had to work more at his "extra" job - in addition to being a full-time, funded PhD student. Seriously, something needs to be done to make sure that folks can pay for their medical care.

Agree with everything you said about DC, path, including this! One of them nearly totaled our brand new car about 2 blocks from my parents' house. We're thinking about going back to the DC area post-graduation. (It seems to me that being by relatives for residency would be a good plan.) By the way, though, the 80s really were bad - I remember the local news back then was pretty dismal. And the DC public schools were (last time I heard) the worst in the country, though my dad tells me things are changing.


By the way, on all this stuff, I do get really passionate about it, probably because MIL came from a middle-class family (what my immigrant/poor farmer to working-class family always aspired to) and pretty much lost everything. The success of my family has always been predicated on these safety nets working. And so I think I'm pretty much shocked by this daily realization that it doesn't always work.

And only one thing on the abortion issue (identifying myself as a pro-life Democrat) - I don't have the reference here, but I read somewhere that there are fewer abortions under Democratic presidents, which the authors hypothesized was due to improved economic/social conditions for the women involved. After all, no one goes out and decides that abortion will be their birth control method of choice. (If they do, well, um, yeah, I'll leave it at that.) I think we all need to realize that folks don't do such a good job of keeping their pants on, and go from there to start fixing this problem at its root, and then re-evaluate.

Geez. I've really got to be studying for my micro test that's coming right up, not discussing politics. Can't wait till this is over, and then I've got nothing else to worry about except Step 1.

I used to be pretty open about abortion ideas (I knew I wouldn't do it myself, but I was pretty neutral about other people). I surely believed that a woman should be able to terminate if the "health of the mother or child was at risk". That second part is an UGLY little euphemism. While I haven't totally formed my ideas about what I think should be done with legislation, I am HORRIFIED the way the medical community handles babies with deformities or congenital disorders. The biased counseling, the "white lies" about the procedure. If any of you have seen a D&E, you know what I'm talking about. Under the silent cloak of general anesthesia, the baby is torn limb from limb and reassembled on a pan. One of my ardent pro-choice friends was a surgical tech and worked on D&E's. He started requesting other cases because it broke his heart.

Now, on to induced labor abortions. Barack Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. This was a piece of legislation that was passed unanimously on the federal level. Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer and every other liberal senator that voted supported BAIPA. Barack Obama voted against it three times. He said that it's too burdensome to have a consulting doctor examine the infant to determine its viability.

Sarah Palin may have conservative views about abortion, but you can't get a more extreme example of a pro-choice (one might even say pro-abortion, in the case above) candidate than Barack Obama.

I totally support malpractice reform. I think that lowering the cost to operate a medical practice and provide medical care is the answer. People used to pay cash for medical care, for goodness sake! If we could lower the costs of providing medical care and provide a reasonable way for people to save money for their healthcare (health savings accounts), we could solve this problem without having the government as a third party in the doctor-patient relationship.

They already are a third party even with the HCSA - Case in Point. My morbidly obese parents have a pre-tax account that they use for co-pays and other tax deductible health care expenses through their employer. Cafeteria plan is what they call it . . . and so they both go through a year of medical counseling and therapy to determine their necessity for the procedure. Insurance approves it with obviously some co-pay left over for the hospital and surgeon. My mom uses her card (VISA type debit) to pay the bill last summer of 2007, then Dad has his late winter (2008) and paid off his copay with his card . . . it's all happy and reaasonable at this point. Then in August 2008 he goes to pay for copay at his endocrinologists office and the card is declined . . . Calls the plan administrator company and finds that they have frozen his account until he can provide proof of medical necessity under the IRS code! I helped him and it is worked out but not without a bunch of pain and fuss for us and for his surgeon . . . So even having MSA/HCSA whatever you want to call them still calls the gvmt into the decisions - IRS specifically - but this gets me on my libertarian leaning soap box and I start to rant about the IRS in general and it goes to an ugly place . . . but even in the most privatized solution that I could think up the gvmt will find a way to stick it's fingers in and muck it up . . . (Muck was not the word I wanted to use but oh well you get the point)

Originally posted by twinmom:

Quote:

Originally posted by futuredrandwife:
I think this will also cause a lack of motivation for young people to work hard and succeed in life, only to know that the more money they make, the more will be taken from them.

"Lack of motivation? Wow, that's (sorry for pun) rich. Let me tell you a little story. MIL put FIL through grad school, putting her own education on hold. FIL started getting abusive, so MIL divorced him, with 2 small children. MIL started working 2-3 full time jobs at minimum wage (all she could get, plus FIL didn't pay full child support) to give her kids a "normal" life. She refused to get any sort of public assistance, since she always felt that other people needed it more. At ~50, MIL's health started going downhill. She lost a string of jobs, due to taking off prolonged time for bypass surgery and now can only work at Walmart, who won't insure her until she pays for health insurance for a YEAR before she receives any benefits. She's paying health insurance out of pocket, and can't make ends meet. As I've previously said, we're paying her mortgage, her stove and refrigerator have been broken for years. Her house is nearly crumbling. I'm sure she'd still refuse public assistance for everything but health care. But please. Someone explain to me how on earth this woman could be more motivated or work harder. (Not claiming she's perfect. She's kind of weird. But she works harder than anyone here, and is at the end of her rope.) Seriously, folks, our government bails out Fannie and Freddie, but won't bail out the backbone of our economy. There are thousands of people like MIL out there who've worked hard their whole lives, and now won't ever be able to retire."
------------------------------------------------

Do you really think that taking the money from someone who has earned it is going to help MIL? I could have sworn you said she wouldn't even take money when she was offered it. Furthermore, what motivation could she have to help ensure her children of having a better life, if all her hard work led to earnings, which led to the government taking a large percentage of these earnings? I don't know, but if that were me, I'd have no motivation to work hard for my children, knowing that most of it was going to the gov't, not to them. As previously posted, the American dream used to be people working hard for their money and KEEPING it, then using some of it to buy a home and saving it for their children's education to have a better life than they did... not to have the gov't take their earnings. This is why economies using capitalism have been more successful in the long-term than any other economies.

I just watched and heard Sarah Palin's speech. I am sad, disheartened and disappointed. She and I may or may not agree on myriad political issues, in fact we may be of one mind or diametrically opposed, but she is a woman who is running for the second highest office of the country and I really wanted her to be someone I could deeply respect (ideology aside). I wanted the woman who is going to hold a job far more important than I have ever held (and perhaps will ever hold) to be someone I cannot help but admire. Honestly, I sat there and thought of all the women I know, liberal and conservative, whose intelligence, compassion, inspired words and actions have encouraged me to be a better person every day. And in my eyes Gov. Palin fell short, so terribly short.

She came across as someone with a capacity for meanness. She made a few good points during her speech, but there were certain points where her smirk and condescending tone echoed a bully. When she was smiling sarcastically and posturing, I could not help but picture her at a meeting with heads of foreign states and the resultant image was little more than a caricature. Throughout her speech, I could not help but draw comparisons between her and other formidable women in conservative politics (I do not want to politicize my comparisons, so I will not compare her to liberal female politicians). I cannot fathom Condoleezza Rice sounding so unprofessional. I also thought of Margaret Thatcher - whether you agreed with her politics or not, you have to admit - she was a very intelligent and formidable woman who never tried to be a comedian during a crucial political event.

Aurora, I'm not very familiar with all of Obama's votes or views. But I find it very disturbing to impose on any girl/woman who unluckily got pregnant after a sexual abuse or incest to have the child. I believe in abortion under extreme circumstances like these, the health of the mother--both physical and mental as well.

With both my pregnancies I had problems and my doctors said that "by law" they had to inform me of my option to end the pregnancy...those are days that I don't want to remember. My Drs were very uncomfortable telling me all these, and we didn't want to hear it at all. Everything turned out fine with my boys. That was in Alaska and Florida.

I have not been able to finish reading this thread but had to post my thoughts, so forgive me if it has already been stated (I got through pg 3 so far)

I think Palin has guts and do not look down on her for running. I think it is great to see a dedicated mom running for vp. I do not doubt that she has the support at home. (I can not say how often I get comments from other classmates regarding leaving my child at home...by other women...) Problem is, she is the polar opposite to me on most of her views, thus I can not vote for her. I was on the fence btw McCain and Obama (and believe me, i have NEVER voted republican or thought I ever would) but McCain's campaign is turning too conservative for me.

Everyone should have choices to run their lives, as they are the only ones truly equipped to understand their circumstances. Limit access, and you limit the ability to make an educated choice. The key word here is "choice"