I know I'm opening up a can of worms with this topic. I even did a forum search assuming this topic was probably covered recently given all the recent legislation, demonstrations...
Any thought on the whole illegal immigration issue from a standpoint specifically on it's impact to the medical field, healthcare expenditure?
I try to be very objective, and I can understand the side of those demonstrating for the rights of the illegal immigrants... however, as a healthcare professional, it's frustrating to me to see how much money goes into unpaid medical expenses for visits to the ER, hospitalizations at University hospitals by undocumented people, etc, etc... I live in Texas and we obviously see it more than some other states. It was frustrating for me during residency and med school to be unable to communicate with quite a few patients because I don't speak spanish/having to rely on a translator to show up. people assume I speak spanish because i have a spanish last name, but it's a married name (my husband is half Mexican. Obviously, as healthcare professionals, our duty is to take care of the patient without judgement on other factors...

It's frustrating for me to see Americans in my clinic who do work hard but are struggling so hard with medical expenses because they have poor healthcare coverage, but don't qualify for other assistance. But you can go to a border town on the American side and the clinics there are filled with patients who somehow are all on Medicaid.

I know there is no easy answer... but I would like to limit this topic just specifically to how this affects the medical side of things... I don't anticipate that 12 million people will be sent back to their country... however, we have a significant number of people (and still will continue to grow) who will make minimum money, who will be unable to afford healthcare if something were to happen, who will eventually get older/sicker, etc.... our hospitals are already burdened by them, what's to happen in another 10 years?

Obvioulsy the US is going to have to make some changes to how it distrubutes healthcare. However, to look at the immigration issue as one that just effects healthcare is one sided and IMHO you can't fairly talk about the negaitive impact of immigration without looking at all the benefits. Immigrants are often willing and from what I've observed do a fantastic job of, performing jobs many in our society don't want so the tax monye they pay goes INTO the medicaid fund. And my personal belief is that any person working that pays into the system has a right to use it when it is necessary. It's simply the humane thing to do. Second, my quest to become a physician has been made much easier by a mexican immigrant nanny I occasionally share with a divorced Mom.

As for the language issue the way I see it, with the except of most slaves, we are ALL decendants of immigrants and so the language we should ALL be speaking is one of those that represents any of the Native American togues that were spoken here before their land was stolen/purchased at a ridiculously cheap price. I think it's just time to learn to speak spanish (which I can already do a little).

Yes, immigrants make minimal money now, but I imagine that in a generation of 2, they will eventually catch up. With few exceptions many immigrants that came through Ellis Island had nothing but the shirts off thier backs and they managed to within a generation or two, begin to prosper finanically. I have absolutely no reason to believe that current immigrants, if given citizenship will more the "make up" for whatver drain they have caused on the healthcare system.

I think it's great that you're so idealistic and optimistic...

That said, in my ideal world, I'd have the time to learn Spanish... but frankly, it's just one of a hundred things on my list of things to do... and with 2 kids, job, etc, I just don't have the time, so I'll just have to deal with that myself. I don't think it should be necessary that we all need to learn spanish. (it'd be nice, but we shouldn't expect it)

And obviously, I know that this issue doesn't just affect the medical side... I just wanted us to focus on that aspect since the topic in itself is so broad and affects every part of our lives.

I do think that if we're going to allow everyone to stay whether they're legal or not... and they are in the lowest paying jobs... their options for healthcare are limited; do we need to start going ahead and offering them preventive care, routine check-ups, etc... so that we don't face more cost by their trips to the ER, chronic diseases in the future, etc?

I think like most Americans, I'm kinda in the middle on this topic. Obviously, illegal immigrants contribute a lot to our society... whether it evens out all the negative impact, I honestly don't know.

Do illegal immigrants really pay taxes? I thought they were paid under the table because no Social Security number, etc.

Introducing arguements with these types of statements imply a lack of sense of what the true issues are in having with this discussion (there seems to be geenral theme here on mommd that premeds don't know anything :rolleyes: ). At almost 40 years old, I can assure that my arguements derive not from a naivete about how the real world works but primarily from the position of caring about the well being of others. Moreover, the consequesnces of not responding to the basic health care needs of a portion of our population often results on a bigger impact on the healthcare system than would normally have been seen.

There are many, many articles on the internet discussing the fact the illegeal immigrants DO pay taxes. Here's one from CBS online:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml

Even with fake SSN's, they pay taxes.
The fact that many americans don't realize that the majority of illegeal immigrants pay taxes is part of a larger scheme to drum up support for their exclusion from society. But I say how can you exclude a group of people who are already here AND in great numbers?

So perhaps the answer for those who live in states that border the entryways of illigeal immigrants is to 1) Impress upon the politicians in states that border Mexico (since people don't seem to be complaining about immigrants form here than other places :rolleyes: ) to do more to secure the borders 2) Require that in border states, physicians be required to speak spanish in much the same way as board certification is required 3) Offer immigrants preventative services, routine check-ups ect for reasons mentioned above. 4) Develop programs for the admisison of mexican/spanish speaking students into med school with the requirements that they complete residencies/work/practice in states like Texas for a few years. 5) Require the IRS send a large portion of the money they collect in taxes back to those states with high numbers of illegal immigrants,like Texas and California. This one is HUGE.

The solution to this problem won't be easy and will require compromise from EVERYONE in some form or another, but with some compassion for the health and well being of others being the driving force, a viable one can be implemented.

Truly a can of worms, but I have to add my two cents. Illegal immigrants do, indeed put an undue burden on an already overtaxed healthcare system. Sure, some immigrants do pay taxes by obtaining a fake social security number, but most do not want to risk the chance of discovery and deportation (personal experience in the agriculture and construction industry). What the burden from illegal immigrants vs hard working legal Americans without healthcare is, I do not know, but I imagine they are about equal? This presents two problems for legislators: 1)Healthcare reform and 2)illegal immigrants. Which, leads us to this discussion. Certainly, we cannot turn an individual away if they are legal or illegal, as we have an obligation to the public to provide equal access to healthcare, but at what cost are we doing so.
I spent several years in a rural clinic, that had a moderate illegal patient base. The patients, who came to the clinic, payed their bills better than some Americans. Even in the workman's comp clinic, employers of the illegal immigrants were (mostly)very good about paying for procedures. The problem arises with hospital stays, surgical procedures, etc. This is where the healthcare field, really feels the crunch. Sure, alot can be written off, but that just helps with the hospitals tax burden, not actually paying staff. Another problem, too, is illegals often do not seek medical attention, until they have reached an advanced stage of their disease, making it more expensive and difficult to treat. I hate to be so wishy washy, but the reality seems to be this way. There is good and bad in everything.
One important thing to remember here as well, is that our country is at war with terrorism (whether you agree with it or not) security is at issue. If you look at our country during times of war, specifically world war II, when our country packed up the Japanese (legal and illegal) as they were seen as a security threat. I agree that as physicians, patients cannot be treated with any sort of prejudice, but in an era, where we (VA hospital) routinely undergo disaster training and drills, it is difficult not to be aware of the security threat. (Mexico and Canada are huge and easily penetrate borders). I am in no way implying that the Mexicans will somehow aid the radical Muslim groups, who so dislike western culture, but just saying it is something to think about.

It would appear to me that the biggest threat to American Security is Americans. Oklahoma City is the one case that comes to mind and the attacks on the pentagon/world trade center may have very well been prevented had WE paid a little more attention to what was going on in the world. Remember, the uS has a chance to apprehend Osama years before the attack on the pentagon/world trade center.

And the rounding up of the Japaneses was simply an imhumane thing to do which is probably why they received financial reparations for their trouble. However, since the Japanese are used in this example,can anyone deny the great contributions they have made, particularly in medicine and science to this country?
This is the same thing I hear about "legal" minorities like Blacks and Hispanics and this would be a could place for a focus on preventative services. But more than that, we have to train profesinals to go into these communities and speak about healthcare. Here is where having more Black/Hispanic matriculants into med school could make a HUGE difference.

Bottom line is that healthcare is GOING to feel the crunch no matter what. We have a choice to continue to go on the defensive like we always are when it comes to solving problems of national importance, or we can for the first time be offensive and develop the type of programs which will lead to better healthcare options and health for EVERYONE who lives here.

This isn't just an issue of illegeal immigrants impact on healthcare costs but of the poor poeple as well who live in this country and don't have/can't afford decent healthcare.

Honestly all it takes is the outbreak of one incurable disease (like bird flu) among a poor population of people for ALL of us to get our acts together and develop a sound means of dealing with the healthcare problem in the US. An immigrant that comes down with Bird Flu or any other incurable infectious disease is going to end up in the SAME ER you're in when you visit after your son breaks his arm. My question is, how many people have to die needlessly before a specific course of action is implemented? We may not "care" too much now about illgeals having poor healthcare options but it's just a matter of time before thier healthcare problem becomes ours in more ways than we are prepared to deal with.

"pathdr2b"... I respect your opinion and idealism... but come on... asking that border states need to require their physicians to learn spanish... come on, we have enough hurdles to go through as it is. And med schools do try hard to recruit minorities... unfortunately, in Texas, there was a lawsuit several years ago which found affirmative action illegal and since then, the number of minorities in med school has dropped.
I'm curious what your current situation is right now? Are you still in med school, in practice? Actively seeing patients. I think it's one thing to make statements when you're not in the day to day of dealing with these things...but experience does change people's perspectives. I think most of us who entered into medicine went into it with all your idealism... and we can't be judged for losing some of that idealism after we see what the reality is... there is no simple answer... and no matter how many complaints there are about our healthcare system, I wouldn't trade it for any other country's... a lot of countries won't even treat you in an emergency unless you have money. We are a very compassionate country in that in times of emergencies, etc... we do treat and ask for money later (which often is not even collected). There are a lot of disparities in healthcare... but that's a whole another topic.

Ok, here we go again. Why is it that the docs THIS site and women not surprisingly :rolleyes: ALWAYS pull this premeds don't know jack ****, stuff ANYTIME there's a debate about medicine??? Well guess what, medicine is about a hellva lot more than PRACTICING but then again LIFE in most ANY career is more than about the career itself. And you think I'm naive? Anyone who has had a demanding a career (Ohh, and docs aren't the only ones with demanding careers either :rolleyes: ) knows this much. The strategy I set out for resolving this immigrant impact on health problem (where's yours, BTW) was about how anyone and everyone who is being impacted by then can do their part. FYI, I've been an ADMINISTRATOR of a state public heath program in a state with a LOT (Florida) of immigrants so my "opinion" aren't just being pulled arbitrarily out of my arse! Have you ever administered a state public health program? But it's funny once again that since I'm not an MD, my comments about this point aren't valid.

The word I am is REALISTIC about medicine and it seems to me that the people who complain the most about it are those who weren't "real" when their journeys began. I'm quite realistic about medicine. Having more than 2 natural kids and trying to be a doc won't work for me. Doing an internship year won't work for me. Working as a part-time Doc isn't going to work for me since I'd like to become an expert in my field before I'm 90. Marrying a doc wouldn't have worked for me because SOMEONE has to have a schedule flexible to fill in when I can't be there and that will happen a LOT. Working in Texas or California wouldn't work for me because my Spanish is way too rusty even though they say once you speak the language fluently (which I learned to do when I lived in Fla ) you get it right back. Working in rural medicine wouldn't work for me because I value personal time with my family and wouldn't want to have to explain scripts to a patient while I was there picking up my own. Becoming a Family Practitioner wouldn't work for me because I don't like the idea of having a career where I know a little about a lot and prefer instead to know a LOT about one particular field. Becoming a pediatrician wouldn't work for me because quite frankly I'm desperately trying to avoid specialities with lots of OTHER women. And men don't bitch nearly as much as women :rolleyes: Being in a primary care field wouldn't work for me because I like having a reasonably set beginning and ending to my work day and NO call. Being a surgeon wouldn't work for me because I have bad back despite having effectively sliced and diced many a lab rat in my day (translation, I have great hands for surgery).

So as you can see, I've spent a Lot of time thinking about medicine and working around docs where luckily for me, I feel that I've been given the TRUTH about the practice of a field that is bound to change probably more than any of us could imagine today. And what today's premed needs to think about when she decides on medicine that what's UNREALISTIC are many of the complaints/demands many young female doctors want today. There is NO "having it all" at the same time, and in the same "quantity"!!! If you want to have a say in your schedule while working with patients, nursing is a great option. But I'd also like female premeds to consider the advantages of being highly adaptable to change without stubbornly and childishly
"stopping their feet" when they don't get their way. That, and seeing the glass as half-full doesn't hurt much either.

I presented a strategy for how your original question could be addressed. Perhaps it's best to refrain from further discussion (and insults to if you don't mind) until you present one yourself.

I'm a person who thinks 25 should be the minimum age at matriculation into med school, so perhas my response to this comment is moot. It's not a matter of being judged for being idealistic as you call it, to me it's about the idea that you have to "sleep in the bed you made for youself". The fact is that too many people go into medicine for all the wrong reasons then wonder why their unhappy? Well duh! Many times on this site, docs say that people tried to warn them abou tthe pitfalls of certain specialities well guess what? I'm one whose actually LISTENING when people with more experience in a specific area talk to me/post messages. I have yet to meet an unhappy pathologist and they ALL have families so besides my strong interest in this field (complete with home microscope and being good on the ol' back)) choosing this field NOW seems like a no brainer to me. Irronically, I don't know a single person in their 30's or older(aka oldpremeds website) who decided to pursue medicine and is now unhappy with their decision.

In my mind it's too easy to "see the reality" of medicine BEFORE you matriculate and I'm not talking about theose "fluffY' volunteer health expereinces you guys put on your med school applications. Wanna know what it's like to treat poor patients? Then "sashey" yourself down to the local homeless shelter or public health clinic. Want to know what It's like to be a surgeon or OB/Gyn? Shadow one on call for 36 hours or better yet, don't shadow but meet with them for coffee AFTER such a 36 hour shift.
Do these types of experiences replace the actual practice of medicine? Of course not,but for those who are willing to LISTEN, they are valuable expriences that can easily be used to make smarter career decisions in the future.

I'm curious, what exactly did you think practicing medicine (I'm assuming you're in a primary care field) in an area of Texas near the border would be like? I've been to Texas once (last year in San Antonio for a meeting) and what was painfully clear to me during that one week I was there was that IF I were planning on living in Texas as a Physician, speaking spanish fluently would not only be a great help to me personally but professionally as well. And accoring to 2 friends, one who is an MD/PhD and the other a PharmD both living in Texas, speaking the language gives you an advantage when negotiong a salary as well!

So in my mind, at some point you have to either say to yourself that I made a wrong decision somewhere, with speciality choice or in choosing where to live, ect or that I was too stubborn to listen when people were giving me advice. But what I don't think ANYONE can fairly do is blame ANY career for their unhappiness because ultimately we make CHOICES. Happiness or the lack thereof, begins and ends with YOU and you cart it around no matter what career you choose.

OK, i'll get off my "don't worry, be happy" soapbox now!

As a Latina this topic hits home really hard. I for one do not think that physicians in any area of the US should "have" to speak *any* language aside from English. It breaks my heart to realize how much America is trying to "accomodate" for ALL folks moving in. If in the next ten years or more we have a huge influx of let's say Koreans and the map starts changing in some areas should we have to then Korean? this can open a HUGE can of worms. Immigrants that go to any OTHER country HAVE to learn the language that is primarly spoken in that area. I grew up in Spain and ALL folks (Germans,Swiss,French,Italians) that moved to Spain INDEED speak Spanish. Why do we as a country must always have to accomodate ALL cultures/languages that come here AND change the way WE do things? do not get me wrong change to a certain extent IS good to a certain point. I think that we as a country have been more accomodating than any other country in the world!
About legalizing the status of immigrants I think that there is no right answer. If you do legalize their status how will ALL OTHER immigrants (including Hispanics) that had to go through the proper channels to become a US citizen feel? why do some folks have some rules and others do not? why do people outcry in rage when this Kennedy congressman was allowed to go home w/o a sobriety test (which I think is wrong) and he was given another set of rules YET we are "considering" allowing all these immigrants legal status? I mean this is like an oxymoron. I do agree that these folks ARE providing a lot to our country but they ARE here illegally! and as far as I know that is against the law right? I am not condoning deporting this guys en masse for many agricultural areas will be at a great loss of workers but I am also not for just "letting" them have at it and become US citizens like magic for this would be a slap to the face of the many other immigrants that waited their time out.
This country is going to go down the drain slowly but surely IF we keep making concessions for ALL folks that come in here. Do you guys think for ONE minute that we could take our little arses to any other country and DEMAND to have physicians that speak OUR language? demand that business have folks that speak our language? demand that they give us instant citizen status? hell no!

I do prenatal care in an outreach clinic where about half of the pts are probably illegal, and about half of those don't speak much (or any) English. Knowing Spanish certainly helps, and I am drawing on 6 years' worth from 35 years ago. I can get by most of the time, but we have a translator for the tough stuff. Last Friday one of our patients walked in unannounced. She had been diagnosed by ultrasound with a severely malformed baby and had terminated 8 days before. She had made a suicidal geature with a knife the night before but refused to go to the hospital. Her husband wanted me to give her some pills and make her better. No English, of course. In this kind of situation I feel helpless even with a translator. I simply cannot say all the things I want to be able to say to her, and explain that there is no pill that will make her better right now. I tried, but I could tell just by listening to the translator that what I was saying was getting hopelessly lost in the translation. We were able to find her a counselor who spoke fluent Spanish and had time to talk to her in 2 hours (not an easy thing in a town of 9,000 in the middle of a cornfield---and the counselor accepted public aid too!) I resent any suggestion that docs be REQUIRED to learn a foreign language. I have Chinese, Vietnamese, and Yugoslavian patients too. Should I be required to learn multiple languages? I don't know if many of you are aware of this, but as of July 1, patients are going to be required by the federal government to produce a valid US passport or birth certificate to get a public aid card. This is really going to complicate prenatal care in my state, as we currently don't require same, on the premise that these women are carrying future citizens that the state will be responsible for once they are born, and we all know that well-baby care is cheaper if it starts in utero.
I don't have a big gripe against immigrants of any kind (my grandparents and great-grandparents were illegal immigrants who snuck in through Canada). What I do object to is the refusal to assimilate. I have no problems with preserving one's culture, but this brazen attitude that we are going to turn the US into Mexico and the refusal on the part of some to learn even basic English just irks me. I spent 2 weeks in Denmark with my kids a few years back. We quickly learned how to read important signs and learned a few basic words. My nephew was there a year and was practically fluent. Danish is an extremely difficult language to learn. I understand that English is too, but when my grandparents came here, they realized very quickly that you don't dig in your heels and demand that people cater to you in this country. You get off your butt and learn to survive, and that includes learning how to communicate.
Well, those are my random thoughts on immigration.

First, I NEVER said that immigrants shouldn't have to speak English, of course they should but this argument about focusing on English is bogus because the US didn't ALWAYS belong to gringos! So technically, we are ALL here illegally!

And America is FAR from accomadating everyone. When was the last time a boatload of Hatians was allowed in?

And yes, if a HUGE influx of Koreans come to America and YOU want to WORK in that community, what so wrong with learning some Korean? I thought medicne was a career of "always" learning something new. :rolleyes:

And allow me to be clear. I'm speaking of giving citizenship to the folks who are ALREADY here, AND shoring up the borders which is pretty much what I already stated previously.
First things first, lets first take care of those immigrants that could potentially have the biggest impact on both the politics AND economy of our country.

WAAYYY too asinine to respond to! :rolleyes:
Turn into Mexico? You MUST be a republician! :p Excuse me, but what we call Texas once WAS Mexico, so you may want to double check your America History before making another comment like THIS one.
:yes:

The fact is that many immigrants for whatever reason aren't learning english, so what are you going to do? Deport them back to Mexico? Then happens to their children who were BORN in the USA? Will we set up orphanages for them? I tell you this is a recipe for breeding homegrown terrorists in your OWN country. Are we going to refuse them healthcare because they don't speak English? Well now that doesn't sound like the compassionate doctor so many of us hoped to be to me.

You know, I'm STILL waiting on a response of what we CAN do intead of trying to tear my responses to pieces. :rolleyes:

When I was a volunteered in the 'hood, I spoke ebonics with some patients and also served as "translator" of sorts to those PHYSICIANS and nurses who didn't. I see speaking the "language" just as important as providing healthcare, because your ability speak the language could potentially effect your ability to provide care.

No, I'd venture to say that the reason folks have their boxers and thongs in a bunch ove rthe immigration issues is because one day, those with brown skin will one day RULE this country. Of course, that means that things will return to the way the USED to be.

I guess I'm so passionate about this issue because I'm a little bit latina but a lotta bit Native Amercian (1/4). More than that, I haven't forgotten HOW this country was "founded" and all the tens of millions of lives that were destroyed making this an english speaking country. So this idea that English SHOULD be the ONLY language spoken here is just ridiculous in a country that was 1) STOLEN from the people who already lived here and 2) Is full of so many immigrants anyway. But I guess all this makes me an idealistic premed!

I am realistic, too: a lot of immigrants don't speak English YET. It makes my life -- and their medical care -- a lot better if I can communicate with them. So I have taken the time to learn Spanish. The Hispanic students in my medical school actually gave a little mini-course to the rest of us! And I continued to learn from patients as the years went by.

Since my area has a lot of immigrants from a lot of different places, I have also made the effort to learn a little Tagalog and Hindi. Just the important, urgent words, like "pain," "nausea," "sit up," "take a deep breath," "are you ready to push," etc., and the polite, friendly words like "hello" and "thank you." For Chinese, I have the characters written down and can point to them (they are too hard to pronounce properly). The translations were kindly provided by bilingual coworkers, patients and family of patients.

That is what I have done. There is no way I'm suggesting that every doctor should do that. It is something that I enjoy and it works for me. If people are going to be working with a lot of immigrants, they might consider doing the same. Last I heard, there was also an AT&T Language Line that you could call for translations of various languages.

As for the immigrants themselves, they should learn English ASAP, and until then, they should bring a bilingual person with them to appointments. It will make their lives a lot easier, and they will get better medical care. Would somebody tell them to do this, please?

pathdr2b, if you took critisism personally by anything I said, there was nothing directed at you. I had no idea that you were premed and I was just asking what your current situation was. I wasn't implying any criticism in what I asked. I just wanted to have a discussion, that is all. No one is throwing insults at you or anyone else. This is just something I was hoping to have an open talk about because it had been on the news recently, and I was just hoping to hear some ideas/thoughts from others in the field. I had registered for this site quite a while ago, and had been reading the posts periodically... and I just thought that I would have a go at being an active participant in the forum... but if we can't just discuss things knowing that we're going to have differences in opinion, I think I'll just abstain from further postings. Thanks.

Same here...I was not (in my post) referring to anything in particular that anyone here wrote...just my thoughts. I still think that if you are in the US that you should learn English and I am not saying that knowing Spanish is NOT a good thing...but to require it would be wrong IMHO. Sure, if you ARE a doc that is catering to Latinos then knowing Spanish is of course a huge asset...but to require it is another whole issue. Of course that all of us here are immigrants for the most part unless you are NA but last time I checked the language "de jour" is English right? so hence my post about having the immigrants learn the language of their new country...

oh, and thanks for your thoughts sahmd and efex...i do have to defend myself on a couple of things... i never said i wasn't happy doing what i'm doing... i did know what i was getting myself into... and i actually have very few patients i can't communicate with in my clinic... so for me now, not knowing spanish is not a big hindrance... and i have a nurse and other staff members who can help me out if needed. I don't necessarily have to "sashey" myself anywhere... I have been on medical mission trips to mexico many times (w/ translators)... i see many patients for free in my own office via a service in Dallas known as Project Access which provides care for working families without insurance, etc... i am also in the process of getting my MPH and going back to fellowship in a couple of months to do endocrinology because there i am aware of its increasing prevalence (esp amongst minorities)... i may or may not learn spanish... if i ever start to feel my patient care is being compromised, i will... but w/services like translators via phone/staff/family members who are much more fluent than i'll ever be, it works.
those of us who work in private practice aren't all in it for the money...
So can we now get back to the issue?

I think that this is a really important issue and it is always important to think of what we would do if we were in positions to change America policy. I don’t really have a solution but for me it would take a revamping of the healthcare system and isn’t so much about immigrants because I want immigrants to be able to come here and I want the people here to be able to stay here. I think that if someone wants to better the lives of themselves and their family it should be relatively easy for them to be able to do that legally but that isn’t the system here. I have friends who have struggled to stay in this country because they were downsized and were told to immediately vacate the country—never mind that they had been here for years, own homes, and have built relationships with loved ones. We are really fortunate in this country and I can see why people want to come here. At the same time, there need to be more laws so that these immigrants are not taken advantage of. Right now there are illegal immigrants who work really hard and get paid nothing close to minimum wage and they do it because they want to and they have to so they can support their families. A system that is easier to navigate would make things better and then the government could be sure that these people get paid what they are supposed to.
With respect to healthcare, I believe that everyone in the world should have basic healthcare as a right not a privilege. Would it cost a lot? Yes. Would all of us have to pay to help this work? Yes. Do I think that it would take so much money out of my pocket to burden me? Nope. Do I think without insurance companies all of this would be cheaper? Absolutely.
I know that it isn’t close to a great solution but like I said, the most important thing is to at least think about it.

Also, I just wanted to say that some of the earlier posts seemed to confuse speaking Spanish with cultural competency. They aren’t the same thing and I would hope that physicians and medical students were taking the time to be culturally competent over learning to speak one language that some of their patients may speak. As long as you educate yourself on the different cultures and you know how to properly utilize a translator—not a family member—to communicate with your patients you will be way ahead of the game and your patients will get better care because of it. Just my opinion but my medical school has inundated me with cultural competency practices so I am pretty biased.

Point taken. I've seen it on this site way too often that, many docs feel that anyone who doesn't have an MD/Do and is practicing medicine isn't in a position to make any statements about the status of the medical field or make suggestions about how to balance a stressful career with family. And after rereading you post, I don't think it's reaching to believe that you unwittingly or not, were doing the same. However, one of the great things about this site is that we are usually able to engage in discussions, disagree, fight, and make up again all in the name of presenting different points of view. And I thnk that's VERY important.

Now back to you regularly scheduled program!

PS- The obesity epidemic in this country is going to make you one very busy doc one day!

The AT&T language line charges 6 bucks a MINUTE the last time I checked, which was a few years ago. That'll eat up what public aid pays for a 99213 REAL quick.

I'm doing my best to be "culturally competent", but it's very hard when you're working with a number of cultures, and what other country in this world trains their docs to be culturally competent in many other cultures (most foreign countries just ridicule American culture)? My culture of origin (scandinavian) maintains a large personal space and is uncomfortable with hugging. Why doesn't anyone in this country repect THAT (there's WAY too much hugging going on in this country).

Assinine in what way (and can we stop the name-calling please?)

It's a legitimate question. You mentioned that doctors should be required to learn Spanish (and btw, I don't live in a border state but I have plenty of Spanish-speaking patients), and I wondered why not other languages if that's how it's going to be?

Melting pot is one thing, but carving out little countries and making comments like I have seen on the news that "We will take over the US". Is not what I would call a melting pot. I never said everyone needed to blonde, blue-eyed, and size 2, but English happens to be the language that this country functions on, and those who learn it are the ones who will eventually attain "the American dream", which is what the folks who have come here over the years have always been seeking, have they not?

I HAVE made the effort to (re)learn Spanish in order to help these women, but I gotta say, even my translator, who was born in Mexico and is a legal immigrant, runs out of patience with some of the ladies who come to our clinic, and their lack of effort to learn how ANYTHING works in this country.

I agree with those who have suggested we need to start offering preventative health care options to illegal immigrants, both to provide them with better care and to save on expensive ER visits and undiagnosed conditions.

I also think it would be a fantastic idea for individual medical schools to start requiring applicants to have studied a foreign language (any language) for at least one year on an undergraduate level. Forget about altruistic motives for a moment--learning a language is cognitively challenging, and surely at least as relevant as calculus or English Literature to the medical profession. I think such a requirement would result in a more intelligent and capable student body overall.

Lastly, I agree with the suggestion that all humans throughout the world deserve basic health care, and that it is the responsibility of those who can to work toward this goal. I am not particularly religious, but I would expect anyone even remotely so to agree with this standpoint.

The comment was asinine, NOT you so my apologies if you took it that way. But common, I'm not "Boo-Boo the Fool", I know EXACTLY what you meant when you asked about learing 3 hundred thousand languages. :rolleyes:
Uhhhhhh, I think we do, it's called a "standard of beauty" that has blond hair/blue eyes and wears a size 2! :p

But don't worry, in a about a hundred years or so, the standard of beauty with be brown hair/brown eyes with a "badonkadonk"!!! :laughing:

I agree with you 100%. I would never even travel to a country without learning at least as much of their language as I needed for my trip. I just think that it is ridiculous to ask for everyone in a country to accomadate others who come in and won't/don't know the language. I mean, I am already teaching my kids German and French. No offense to anyone who speaks Spanish, but I can't speak a word of it. I know SEVERAL languages, but for some reason I just have a block with Spanish. I am not going to go out of my way to learn it, either. I think that languages should be taught optionally and with enthusiasm if you are going to, but telling me I HAVE to? Not going to happen.

Just like when you travel, I have many friends who live in Europe or have traveled. Especially places like France, they are very patriotic, and very much in love with their language. Most of them learn several other languages in school, and I think that is usefull. But the minute you go speak English there and demand they speak it back to you, girl, you are in for trouble.

I live in an area with a HUGE migrant worker population, and I would say that 90% of the ones I have encountered speak good English. Even in the hospitals I worked at. There was one couple who didn't, but one of our most awesome nurses was Mexican, and she would translate. I don't see any need to treat illegals differently medically. But I do not have insurance, and I'll be darned if some hospitals would see me, we have enough problems with poverty and insurance in this country to allow a huge influx of citizenship to bear a bigger burden.

I agree, why is it so forced upon us to learn Spanish due to immigration, when I'm sure up farther north by the Quebec border, I am sure it's not required to know French, right? OR what if there was suddenly a huge Chinese influx, do you really think that we would be bending backwards to learn Chinese? Of course not.

It would not be fair to all of the migrants who are legal and have worked really hard to become a citizen, and the ones that have broken laws and been illegal just get citizenship with this whole deal.

I personally think that immigration should be slowed down to almost a halt with all of the terrorism issues. I think that it should be way more selective, if anything. Yes, our ancestors (most of us) were migrants, too. My ancestors personally came over right after the Mayflower, then some as Irish slaves, and I am also part Native American (documentable), and this land was stolen. But just about all land on this earth was stolen at some point in the past or more recently. Including from my relatives, but I am not making a big fuss over what someone's great great great great grandparents did to my great great great grandparents. That's the past. Let's fix the future.

Believe me, I am not afraid of "those with brown skin ruling the country some day". That is just plain ridiculous. I have many minority friends who would all think that this comment is ridiculous. I am dying for some more people of color to run for office. Barack Obama is just about a God to me here in Illinois where I am surrounded by rednecks.

You must forget that every country around today has been "stolen" from someone else. And the "original" inhabitants didn't even speak Spanish. That was only when the Spanish and Portugese (mainly, but there were other culprits) came over and raped and pillaged the natives. Thanks smallpox.

And english is what this country was built on, being "founded" as a country by the English, but also, what about dutch, or french? Because they are the ones that also helped mostly build up this country and "fought against the Spanish for land", so since we are on the "winning" side of this one, should it be more fair to make French and Dutch secondary languages? We most likely wouldn't even be a country if France hadn't helped save us from the British during the American Revolution.

I think that one of the main reasons I am for an "english only" primary language, is because it will help with assimilating everyone into "an American". You don't have to leave your cultural identity behind, you just need a way to communicate effectively to "live the American Dream". But that's just my :twocents:

I agree. I have space issues.

The comment was asinine, NOT you so my apologies if you took it that way. But common, I'm not "Boo-Boo the Fool", I know EXACTLY what you meant when you asked about learing 3 hundred thousand languages. :rolleyes:
I am neither a size 2, brown eyed, blond hair blue eyed, nor do I have a nice "badonkadonk".

I think that the "standard of beauty" in this country is quite ridiculous, honestly, but you'd have to get rid of tv and the media to revert that one. Or have more beautiful diverse people on there, which I desperately hope happens. But what has this to do with anything? BTW: Salma Hayek is absolutely GORGEOUS, and noone would deny that one. Seen Frida?

I have seen Frida(although the one eyebrow doesn't work too well for me personally). Salma Hayek, beautiful? Sure she is, but what dooes THAT have to do with anything?

The REAL question is can you name 5 other Mexican American actresses? How about 3? Maybe not now, but in another 10 maybe 15 years, hopefully many more than 5! :yes:

No, but I also can't name very many American ones, cause I don't really care. That has to do with your suggestion that someone like her isn't a standard of beauty in this country "yet". She is fabulous and I believe a pretty good role model at the same time. I was just naming one lady who is by far a standard of beauty in this country to many of us who don't aspire to be bleach blonde.

Maybe a good place to start would be mixing up dye batches in Hollywood so that everyone went brunette for a day?

But then there are some people who are naturally blonde and look fabulous, like my 5 year old. Who is a blue eyed, strawberry blonde freckle faced little angel. She doesn't look like my child!

I wasn't going to get involved with this because I have really deep feelings about this--I get so outraged over how this current country was founded and how anti-different America seems to be but I just gonna say a few things.

I like the way dnw quoted "founded" because we all know this place was "founded" way before columbus and some of the patriarchal, social darwinist, English colonizers.

Furthermore, I do think the Mexicans are due reparation because all this land just wasn't enough so they had theirs taken from them. "Illegal" immigrants who are here working do pay taxes that helps support everyone who is "legal" and they don't get tax returns.

Somehow the US gets the money to provide free medical care for all people in the prisons--and for some, that is a lifetime of free medical and dental care, and they don't have to pay for prescriptions. Heck, maybe I ought to committ small crime so I can get my wayy to expensive dental work done! :p

Maybe, like Path, I can be claimed to be "idealistic"--but I think with proper regulation and taxes this immigration thing could help a lot of people.

Maybe YOU aren't but I doubt your avergae republician isn't a least a little concerned about the potential political power of 10 million Mexicans.
I'm trying to decide if you should get a cookie for having minority friends or if I should counter than with a comment that I have majority friends that think my statement isn't ridiculous. They're all democrats so maybe they don't count.
What other country in the world has a history that includes the deaths of millions of the inhabitants in that country as well as the death of 10 of millions of others (via the slave trade)??

Now I hate to "go here", but this country was also "founded" with a belief in slavery (exactly how many slave owners signed the declaration of independance eludes me at this moment), and the practice of it is what contributed the most to building this country. Not Europeans, but Africans so maybe should all speak Swahilli or Yoruba.

Can someone explain to me what "American Culture" is because what I've seen as "American Culture" some examples I noted previously, doesn't appeal to me. Besides, I thought America was a "salad" with lots of different indegredients (people) to make one healthy meal (country). I don't care for having my lettuce, tomatos, turkey bits, egg, olives, cheese, and salad dressing "blended" together until it hits my stomach! However, for those you like that kinda meal, more power to you!

So is America a "salad" or a "souffle"???

Yeah, and don't forget European, Russian, Chinese/Asian/Japanese, Indian, heck, any historical monarchies with a military caste/agricultural serf-type system (including hundreds of African tribal chiefdoms such as the Zulu). Polynesian nations too. Aboriginals in Australia, particularly the way they treated women. The question maybe should be, who has been able to pull out of these systems and how did they do it. How can this be spread around the world. Subjection based on caste or sex is still standard practice in much of the world today, remember.

Common now, you took that comment a little seriously didn't you? I mean my comments are ridiculous, right?
It's just REAL strange to hear nonminorities say "Hello world,I have black freinds too" as if that makes them more "PC" or something. For all I know, your "black friends" could be Clarence Thomas clones although that seems unlikely since you're a Dem. I dunno, is anyone interested to know that my closest friend is from India?

As a perosn with Jewish ancestors (Jacobi's of NYC) yeah, we could chat about the jews too if you'd like! But then we would also have to talk about how some Jews look white (althogh some blacks look "white" too but without the same "advantages").

It's not about the fact that America isn't the only country with a history, it's about how bad that history REALLY is. Kinda the same way I don't see killing someone in self-defense the same as killing someone because they stepped on your shoe.

And I'd personally show a LOT more appreciation if I could get that 40acres and a mule so many of my ancestors didn't get.

I hear you about Columbus. Be glad that you are not the teacher when my kids start school. If they teach them that crap about Columbus and whatever and the "New World" I swear I am going to go in and thoroughly scream at whoever lays out the lesson. I don't want my kids learning that crap. It's a pure lie, and I think that our kids deserve to know the truth.

I need dental work, too, maybe we could go in on something together?

However, I do not believe in reparations. That was a long time ago. The history is too violent and disturbing. I don't think that anyone's descendents should have to pay for what their ancestors did. None of my ancestors have ever held slaves (though I do have several who were slaves), and I do not live in, have ever lived in, nor has anyone in my family ever lived in the area taken from the Spanish.

OK, I was just reading up on the Louisiana Purchase which seems to be the center of this debate...
It was purchased from France who won it in war against the Spanish, right? And most of the indians (probably THE worst genocide in the history of man) were dead, or inbred with the Spanish for the most part, right? So really, it wasn't really theirs anyways as a matter of speaking, but only stolen and sold several times by greedy men? I am rambling now. All I really wanted to get through (however unclear) is that I don't argue the fact that migrants are very much usefull, I just think that it would be unfair to the legal ones if the illegal ones would be on equal footing. Like seeing someone cheat on an exam you studied hard for, and the teacher doesn't care. I just think that our country is so screwed up, having this many illegals, and adding more is not going to be a good thing right now. How about we use some of our money (If we could get out of debt as a nation, but I am not going into that) to help make the migrant home countries more livable, or stop sending crappy nickel a day jobs over for 5 year olds and keeping them here, which would be more fair to US citizens and migrants. Which only worsens poverty and living conditions and keeps the cycle going.

From India? Fascinating, I had one Indian friend growing up, but she moved away. I love the food and the culture. I want to go some day when I have money. But that's OT, anyway, yes I take it personally. Me having "minority" friends is a big thing where I live. I live in a very backwards area where I have to fear that the KKK will literally find me for my very public views around here and the fact that I am the only Jew in a 100+mile plus radius. So having someone "culturally diverse" as a friend is very important to me. I take it very personally. And what is wrong with Jews looking white? I don't care what your skin tone is, it's who you are. I am beyond white. Somewhere near albino skin. Don't know how. Everyone else in my family is fairly dark complected (Did I spell that right?).

And America's history of slavery and thief is really no worse than many other areas, we are just a much newer country, so the wounds are much fresher.

The immigrants that have the "best" chance of becoming legal residents in the US are those from European countries is and lets not be naive, we all know why. So to say that allowing illegal and legal Mexican immigrants to be on the same "level" is unfair, it to assume the process of becoming legal is fair in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with it (remember I have Jewish ancestors and they did look VERY white), but being able to do so does give one certain "advantages" in todays' society.

Actually at all the schools I have been to (please why can't I graduate soon???), if you are African American, or latino, they just gobble you up. The other immigrants, though, aren't really treated the same. A lot of them look down at "another Indian kid", etc. But people who are latino are in such a demand around here, that you are pretty much guaranteed in. And one of the reasons for your argument, I must say, is probably due to money. I know a lot of the immigrants from Asia and Europe here are from VERY well off families. I could only imagine...

Believe me, my stepdad and one of my half brothers look VERY jewish. One of my brothers, though is fair, blue blue blue eyes, and light brown hair. The other looks every bit of the Native American we have in us. Literally. Dark skin (I sooo envy him), black eyes, black hair, he is quite the little 10 year old looker. He's gonna make girls melt!

I can't name 5 Irish-American actresses, or 5 French-American actresses, or 5 Swedish-American actresses, or 5 German-American actresses. I can name hundreds of American actresses.

You do know your history, dnw826.

My grandparents didn't come here with any ambitions of taking over this country. They came here to work hard, make a living, and become Americans.

Seeing people on TV shaking Mexican flags and screaming that they are going to take over this country is not doing the cause of Mexican immigration any favors.

The nanny I split with another Mom hasn't waved a Mexican flag yet. Nor have she mentioned anything to me about "taking over the US".Have any of your patients?

Irronically, ALL European! :rolleyes: :p

Funny, I can name 1 Chinese American actress, 2 Mexican American actresses, 1 Korean American actress, and boatload of Caucasion and African American actresses. Seems to me that if Hollywood is a salad, then I'm missing a LOT of my favorite indegredients!

Hello Ladies,

I think this discussion thread illustrates some of the problems we have with the issue very clearly:

1. We tend to take this issue *very* personally. (And regarding this... before you read further here, please know that I have the most warm and fuzzy feelings for all of you, no joke... you may think I am crazy, but I hope you know how blessed I feel to have this little community to come to. I have nothing but love and respect for ALL of you, and while I am the touchy-feely-huggy type I promise not to hug anyone who is not into the whole "invasion of personal space" thing (Anna) )

2. Many people are ambivalent - they want their cake, they want it without preservatives, they want it not to spoil, and they want to eat it too (One of the earlier posts had this sentiment, I can't scroll back now to see which one).

We don't want immigrants in the country, but we do want them if they are really smart (triple PhD in Astrophysics, Physics and Math, or a computer science guru from India, I am generalizing and stereotyping a bit to make a point), and then if we decide that we don't need them here any more (say the industry tanks), we give them a few weeks to pack up and leave.

If they are cleaning our homes for really cheap (ladies we are all busy and wouldn't we all be happy to have someone come every week and clean our homes for say $100 a month? :boggled:

I think I have given enough examples for this point.

3. We tend to get defensive and we lean towards "apologism" when American history is discussed. The fact that "ALL" other countries have equally or more bloody histories does not make it OK. :yes: transparency, honest information, reliable data... without spin, without agendas, etc. (Yeah right, I am naive, I know... sure that will happen about the same time as we fit the first pig with some wings... :ouch: , but we have to suck it up (btw, I am not saying this will/will not happen - I don't know, don't have enough info).

Thanks for reading... sorry I got long-winded... back to the research for me and the most warm and positive wishes to all of you...

GREAT post, Sweet. Sometimes it's not WHAT you say but HOW you say it!

Of course not, but the fact that there are folks out there who freely claim that that is their aim is disturbing. Incidentally, no one "rules" this country. It is governed. So if folks with brown skin are going to rule this country, as you claimed in a previous post, I guess we're going to have to completely change the structure of our government.

You missed my point. My point is that there are a lot of actresses who do not identify themselves by their national or ethnic origin, and I don't pay much attention to same when I'm watching a good movie, if the actresses and actors are good at what they do.

Now whose missing the point. :rolleyes: The reason republicans are shaking their Ferragamos is because if those with brown skin are legalized and allowed to vote, but more importantly also RUN for office, America will indeed be "ruled" by brown folks.

Quick question: Does anyone really believe that this country is being "governed" more than it is being "ruled"? :scratchchin:

I could definitely use some good, convincing words (especially when I go to the gas pump later today :banghead: ) to help me snap back out of this desperate state of disillusionment.

I think it should be pointed out that not all Europeans are white and not all Latin Americans are non-white. I know many white Mexicans. Btw, Mexicans both white and non-white can be just as racist as any other ethnic group. I actually fear for African-Americans once the Mexicans take over and their system of even greater racism, inefficiency, and corruption becomes the norm. African-Americans don't know how good they've had it under "the white man". If anyone doubts how racist or nationalistic Mexicans can be, just do a little bit of research on how Mexico treats its black and Indian community, its own illegal alien community, or how black Americans have been lynched in Mexico for just flirting with Mexican woman, yet the authorities have done NADA, per usual. I say this as someone who has white Mexicans in her family, so I know whereof I speak. Just look at the Memin Pinguin scandal last year, for starters or how blacks are portrayed on Mexican TV. Heck! Many Mexicans can't even admit to their country's own black heritage. Another member of my family once sought political asylum in Mexico, and in typical Mexican fashion, they treatened to report him to the communist gulag running his native land. Lord help us all once these people take over!

I'm a huge dork. :boxedin:

So the question is what makes a person white? I'm trying to figure out how ANYONE with Mexican heritage could be "white". I'm not a history buff, but weren't the Aztecs and Incas, people of color? Mexicans may have European ancestors, he!! so do I, but I'm not "white". However, if being a "white" Mexican makes you happy, go for it just don't be a HYPOCRITE when it's time to fill out your AMCAS application.
I don't think there's a racist free race of people in the world. What I do know is that since i'm often mistaken for being 100% latina and speak a little spanish, I've NEVER had a racial "incident" with someone who was Mexican, Now those Cubans, different story! In my exp[ereicne the unifier is the ability to speak spanish no matter what "race" you are. Except with those Cubans!

WTF!?!? I'm almost tempted to ask you if you even have a GED with this comment! :rolleyes:

I must agree with you in many ways, Sweet. Except this point. The colonists (if you are talking about the main colonists of Dutch-French-English beginnings who "started" our democracy, as well as the colonist immigrants who fled from some of the wrongs of Europe, then you are greatly wrong in your comparison. There is a huge divide between the wrongs of Stalin and Hitler vs. the wrongs of the American colonists. Sure they CERTAINLY were not by any stretch of the imagination perfect, but can you really compare the two?

And by 1800, slavery was abolished in many northern states, a federal ban on new slaves was installed 1807, etc. And France and Britain were both pioneers in anti-slavery laws and enactments at the very beginning of the 19th century. So you are right there. But here is a question we should ponder: Why was the US so slow to respond to the global change?

I was wondering about this last night. Many of the other countries who were previously slave holders seem to do just fine (comparatively) with equal rights and such. Here in America, I am assuming it is more a matter of the "newness" of our democracy, as well as the fact that most of our immigrants have been incredibly poor or incredibly rich. That is a huge divide. Sure we have some middle ground, but it hasn't always been like that.

Many countries such as Russia and England and France are declining in population rapidly due to immigration to the US, and the lower birth rate due to waiting longer to have children. So they have actually started programs to increase immigration into the country (I don't know about Russia, but England and France have). There are many programs to become a citizen. The easiest is if you have any sort of specialized training or college degree. But they still allow others in. And we don't hear about riots against their standards. Now they are both democracies, too, and they do have large international/immigrant populations. It really is your "tossed salad". But they also have immigration restictions: (wikipedia)
"Restricting immigration in the European Union has often been driven by the fear the immigrants will bring alien political values that will disrupt or dilute European values, by nativism or general fear of strangers, by fear of wage and benefit reduction, by concerns of adverse impact on public services, or by security interests regarding criminals or terrorists.

A major issue is illegal immigration from Africa across the Mediterranean Sea, especially via the Strait of Gibraltar, where thousands of people die every year in attempts to reach Europe. There has been suggestions about establishing immigrant centres in Morocco, or elsewhere in northern Africa, to give information and protect the people risking their lives to reach Europe.

Southern Spain is a major entry region for illegal immigrants. It's estimated that about a million illegal immigrants from Africa live and work illegally in this area.

The European Union is developing a common system for immigration and asylum and a single external border control strategy.

In France, helping an illegal immigrant (providing shelter, for example) is prohibited by a law passed on December 27, 1994 under the cohabitation between socialist President François Mitterrand and right-wing Premier ministre Edouard Balladur [5]. The law was heavily criticized by non-governmental organizations (NGOs) such as the CIMADE or the GISTI, left-wing political parties such as the Greens or the French Communist Party, and trade-unions such as the magistrates' Syndicat de la magistrature, who alleged that this brought France to the dark periods of Vichy France during World War II.

In October 2005, dozens of Subsaharian emigrants died trying to bypass the Spanish enclaves of Melilla and Sebta. Morocco's authorities decided to expel all of them, leaving hundreds stranded in the desert near Oujda (border with a zone of Algeria loaded with landmines) and south of Morocco, without water nor food. This raised a public uproar in Europe, although Morocco legitimately pledged that Europe's 1985 Schengen Agreement compelled it to fund Morocco in order to be able to cope with the emigration influx."

So then, (sorry I'm rambling)is it harder for people in America to deal with a standards system because of our proximity to nations which are not fair to their citizens (poverty, crime, general disarray), or is it the fact that since we are technically "new" (so are Mexico and Canada among others, really, if you think about where their current governmental system is compared to the previous native system), everyone feels that they have the right to be here because of our

"The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame.
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she
With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And one other thing, this current thing to allow in illegal immigrants as citizens will "forgive past criminality in order to defer future criminality". Now that is a crock. Maybe I'm not much of an optimist, but we are letting in CRIMINALS??? Now I can see the poor old women and men and children desperate for escape from poverty (the "political refugees"), but now criminals? That is different.

And about Mexico: (wikipedia again)
"Mexico has accepted large numbers of immigrants during wars such as World War I (Germany, Yugoslavia, Poland, etc.); the Spanish Civil War and exilees form the South American and Central American dictatorships. It has also received those who are fleeing their native areas for religious persecution such as the Russian Molokans and Christian Lebanese and Mennonites. However, in the last decades, Mexico has received illegal immigrants as the result of civil war in Central America, many of whom attempt to eventually cross the US border illegally. Some of the immigrants are members of the Mara Salvatrucha, a criminal organization whose members have terrorized various places in Mexico, and in the States have currently extended their activities as far north as Washington, DC. It is said that the U.S. is pressuring Mexico and paying for the deportation of Central American origin.

In the first eight months of 2005 alone, more than 120,000 people from Central America have been deported to their countries of origin. This is a significantly higher percentage than in 2002, when for the entire year, only 130,000 people were deported [6]. Other important group of people are those of Chinese origin, who pay about $5,500 to smugglers to be taken to Mexico from Hong Kong. It is estimated that 2.4% of rejections for work permits in Mexico correspond to Chinese citizens [7]. Many women from Eastern Europe, Asia, United States and Central and South America are also offered jobs at table dance establishments in large cities throughout the country causing the National Institute of Migration (INM) in Mexico to raid strip clubs and deport foreigners who work without the proper documentation [8]. After the Argentine economic crisis of 2001 many Argentines have chosen to immigrate to Mexico either temporarily or permanently. Many of these are currently working in the country with the proper documentation, including some who work also in table dance establishments. In 2004, the INM deported 188,000 people at a cost of USD$10 million [9].

Mexico has very strict immigration laws pertaining to both illegal and legal immigrants.[10] The Mexican constitution restricts non-citizens or foreign born persons from participating in politics, holding office, acting as a member of the clergy, or serving on the crews of Mexican-flagged ships or airplanes. Certain legal rights are waived in the case of foreigners, such as the right to a deportation hearing or other legal motions. In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may make a citzen's arrest on the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities."

I think we should keep in mind that Mexico and Mexican are nationalities, not races. You can be Mexican and be of any race or mixture theirof. Is American a race? How can a Mexican can be white? Uh, just like an American can be white...or black...or Asian...or whatever. There are Chinese-Mexicans, American-Mexicans, Lebanese-Mexicans (like Salma Hayek and Carlos Slim Helu - the richest man in Latin America), about 9 million European-Mexicans, Guatemalan-Mexicans, etc.

Do you actually think someone like Gael Garcia Bernal should be considered a disadvantaged minority in this or any other country? Consider Mexican Pres. Vicente Fox. His mother is an Asturian Spaniard and his father is an Irish-American.

I would like to think that we are governed, but I must say that the way W got into office scares me. You think England will take me as an asylum immigrant? :p

Charlize Thurman is African and she's white. Guess what, I get that point. :rolleyes: But just like I don't think there are any white americans with roots back to the 17 and 1800's that can claim to be pure "white" (due in large part to the thousands of blacks that "passesd" for white), I don't think Mexicans with a history going back hundreds of years in Mexico can be "white" either. That's just my personal opinion.

I just find it funny that despite the fact the Europeans make up less than what, 1/10 the land/population mass of the world, anyone who can be "white" chooses to be "white".

Now the only caveat to this IMHO, is the "culture" you grow up with. If "River Dancing" is your idea of tap dancing, then you may be white culturally. And I guess if you have the blue eyes to match, then you're set. But it's had to imagine a person with an Afro no matter what "race" they are, being able to "Riverdance" their way out of a beat down by the Klan. :scratchchin:

YES!!! People from Mexico can be "white"!!!

A girl in one of my classes is by far the whitest girl I have ever seen (and this is coming from ghost me here), and she is 100% Mexican who is up here to work and go to school.

Spanish and Portuges peoples (except those descended from the Moors and Northern African immigrantss) are WHITE. When Europeans came over here, they forcibly impregnated just about every native woman they could get their hands on to assimilate their power. If your daddy's Spanish, you're less likely to fight them off, right? And most of the natives were killed (War or smallpox or slavery), so there are VERY few "actual" natives left.

So most Mexicans are white, as well as other central/south american countries bred in with the Spanish and Portugese (and occasional caribbean islands with the French-who I must say for a good part were pretty well taken care of, such as Dumas' grandmother who was a Dominican(?) slave that his grandfather fell in love with). Especially Brazil, but that's a whole other can of worms with all the German in there, too.

And I believe that her point in bringing that subject of "looking white" up is directly from a comment that you made earlier about "Jews who look white and blacks who look white". So don't go yelling at her trying to make her sound white-pridish, she brought up a very valid point on the mixture of races and how other countries deal with race.

And really, "Blacks" or whatever term you want to use do have it pretty good here right now, there are places it could be far worse, and I have heard that many Central/South American countries are very very bad to you if you are "colored", just as she said.

Has anyone answered me about what black English/French/Canadians call themselves, or do they just not care as much as we do??? Because there are tons of colored peoples throughout Europe that seem to be integrated into society far more thoroughly and happily, especially due to the fact that their ancestors were migrants and traders, but I am getting OT.

Someone like Heather Locklear is part Lumbee Indian from North Carolina. The Lumbees have Indian and African heritage. Somehow I don't think someone like Heather should qualify for Affirmative Action, but that's just me. I know many individuals in similar situations who've tried to pull this stunt and often they get away with it.

Did anyone here know that the infamous Monica Lewinksy was half Honduran?

You never know.

I love genealogy, I think that it's fascinating. I started a thread on it in General Discussion. I agree with you to a point. It's that whole fairness conundrum. Is it fair to give someone something due to their skin tone/heritage? Just like is it fair to take it away for the same reason? I would not want to be given a job because I am a woman, I think that it would be insulting. I would be outraged if something I worked hard on to get was given to someone else due to race or sex, but then, would they be given the chance without affirmative action?? :scratchchin:

How many Spanards (where my great great grandmother on my fathers side is from BTW) would claim to be a decendant of a Moor? Just like in America, not many people are willing to admit to their "colored" heritage and because genes are strange creatures, without a DNA analysis it would be impossible (sometimes) to look at a Spainard and KNOW who was Moor and who wasn't.

Saying that blacks in America never had it so good is RACIST and a dumba$$ thing to say. Unforutnately, I don't have the time or energy to explian African History to make you or anyoen else understand (Cleopatra didn't look a dam thing like Liz Taylor, for example :rolleyes: ). He!!, we built this freakin place for FREE!!!

I call it like I see it and if that's a problem for you, then too bad! :p

dnw, thanks for the great and informative post, you are certainly much more the history buff than I. I still believe that the genocide of the native people of this land is no less than what Hitler, or Stalin, or Khmer Rouge, or anyone else in that category did, but I do agree with you on the points you are making about immigration across the continent.

Now I do have to take issue with a couple of posts that claim that "black people have it good here".

I cannot begin to tell you how insulting that sounds (even for someone who is not black) and I am SURE, I KNOW you did not mean for it to sound insulting, but it really does.

First, the fact that things may be bad for blacks somewhere else does not make things here "great" (relativism, unless we are talking physics, is an UGLY thing ). By that same logic, we should say that Jews who were being repressed by the Satlinist regime should have just been "thankful" for how good they had it compared to the Jews in Germany??? Really? Sure, during the Stalinist regime many Jews even were represented in politics, some held key posts in various institutions, etc., but really they should be "thankful"? :no:

The treatment of people whose skin contains extra melanin and whose features are of the Negroid anthropologic type has been horryfying, shameful, disgusting, abysmal for most of this young country's history. Yes, some strides have been made over the past 50 years, and things may be better compared to the state of blacks in some other places on this planet, but to suggest that "blacks have it good here" is not only insensitive and insulting, but is really quite terrifying to me, as a human being, as an egalitarian, as a believer in democracy.

I am neither racist nor a dumba$$. I am just agreeing with what someone else said that how we have it now is a lot better than what could have been or what is in other countries. And I agree about Cleopatra as well as about Jesus. IT is pretty laughable when you see all the little Aryan Jesuses and Cleopatras. I am a self proclaimed Egyptphile, and it is pretty funny what some people think.

So don't worry about telling me all about African history. And blacks in AMERICA never have had it so good. Better than slavery, right, so as of thus far this is the best it's been, and hopefully things will get better.

They do have it good here compared to how it has been historically here for them, as well as compared to how bad things would have gotten if we didn't start to become civilized towards our "fellow men". Things aren't great, I never said they were, I just know that it could be worse. One of my best friends in this town growing up was black (he moved a couple of years ago)and you would not believe some of the horrible things people said/did to him. It was disgusting. But he even said it himself, that it could be worse, and he's lucky that even in this he!!hole it isn't as bad as it could be a few hours away.

I personally don't understand why someone would want to deny their black heritage. I find it disturbing. But that's just me. I know some people do, and that's too bad for them. Queen Charlotte was descended from Moors. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/royalfamily.html

And why is it hidden if you're a Moor in Spain? I don't know much about Spain. I didn't think that it was a big deal. but obviously I am wrong there.

That comment wasn't directed at you since I don't think it was you who said blacks have it good here. But I have to tell you that my experience with female Egyptians, with hair far nappier and shorter than mine is, and skin much, much darker, is that they have turned their noses up at me (and other female african americans) and let me know that they're "white"(and I've had this experience with other black looking Africans that claim to be white too. Yet another from of ignornce and racism). Now my understanding about Egyptian culture, is that many of them who in America would look "black" to Americans, are "white" in Egypt. No problem, to each their own culture. But calling yourself white is no more of a badge of honor than callng yourself anything else, IMHO.

I'm not saying this applies to you, just speaking my mind.

I know that on many forms that I have seen, you are considered "white" if you are from Middle Eastern or Northern African descent. I have no idea the logic behind that one, and quite frankly, even having to check that box irks me. One thing I am confused about: if you are white and from Africa, do people get all put off if you check African, because you are, right? All this pc confuses me. Why can't we just claim what country we're from and be done with it?

BTW, anyone who is bemoaning the fact that Europeans stole this country from the Native Americans, keep in mind that the Native Americans are getting their payback in their casinos. Many tribes are becoming wealthy off the rest of Americans, and I've always said, More power to them (since I don't gamble, I'm happy for those of my fellow Americans who do gamble to do their part to pay the Native Americans back.) Of course, in some instances, the tribal elders are being just as corrupt about what happens to all that money as your average corporate raider.

If this country was being ruled by one man, we would have Federal liability reform, but we don't.

Are you for real?

How do you "replace" the millions upon millions of lives that were lost when their country was invaded and they were exposed to diseases like small pox and syphillis? How do you replace the lost of culture? Alcoholism was the worst "gift" Europeans "gave" the Native Americans!

God, help us all! It's just a matter of time before history repeats itself in the form of mass slavery or another large scale holocast. Ignorance of the past is the perfect recipe fo repeating it the only question is who will be the aggresors this time?

I'm going to have to go pray after that one, LITERALLY!

There are already genocides perpetually happening. I have a good book on it, I will have to find it to tell you what it's called exactly. Samantha Powers, maybe?

And let's face it, people need to take responsibility sometimes and stop blaming it for their ancestors or how their ancestors were treated. I'm mostly Irish/Scottish and I am not an alcoholic who blames the English for the horrors inflicted upon my ancestors. And it really does compare a great deal if you read a lot about the history of Britain. Though surely not maybe in the size comparison of the mass chaos that ensued, but Ireland has been sh!t on for centuries by others. Irish slaves, legal rape of Irish and Scottish women, being called the n word of Europe, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/ssecretum1.html

This is really interesting. Path, you might like this one.

No doubt, you're right peopl do need to take responsibility. But it's hellva LOT easier to "pull yourself up by your boot straps" when you have "boots". the reason so many of us are educated is because the generation BEFORE us was educated. How can you "pass on" something thatyou don't have? Unfortunately, what some people do end up passing on may or may not be of benefit either to themselves or society.

My grandma has a 3rd grade education which is substantial for my family. My mom somehow managed to graduate high school. My cousin was the first to go to college (he was a literal juvenile delinquent who never went to high school but spent most of his teens in juvie, decided to do something with himself and was (transferred to northeastern or something) awarded the highest math award possible at his university, and accepted into MIT for his PhD in math-true fairy tale stuff).

And now I believe that I am the second to go to college. I don't have someone "before me" who was educated to stand on. Neither do several of my friends. But I can say that it does bother me when I see all of these little rich snobs in my classes, jealousy, anger that most of them have never worked for something a day in their lives... Call it what you may.

Didn't say it made up for millions of lives (though, do you really think it was millions upon millions? The native American population didn't top 1 million until somewhere in the 1970's, and through the 19th century represented 0.1% of the total population of the US.) I just find it fitting and just (and somewhat amusing) that Native Americans are taking some Americans for every cent, and they are handing it over willingly. As I said, more power to them. We stole their country and they are getting some back.

And BTW, I am not blaming Africans for unleashing AIDS and Ebola on the world, so let's not start blaming Europeans for smallpox and syphilis, though according to the following, it's quite likely that Native Americans sent syphilis back to Europe with Columbus, not the other way around. Check it out:
http://www.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/syphilis.html

As a former AIDS COUNSELOR, I can tell you with certainty that it was a gay WHITE dude that FIRST brought AIDS to the USA. He was in Africa ( as a Airline Steward)screwing around, pun intended. So sure, you could "blame Africans" for it but ultimately you'll have to look at someone who looks a lot like YOUR HUSBAND to understand why the disease is here. Besides, I haven't seen bands of Africans running around here raping folks in America to spread either AIDS or Ebola. :rolleyes:

But thanks for the heads up. It's always nice to get sense of how uninformed our doctors are and how desperately more doctors of color are needed to quell the ignorance. And THAT, brings us back to why having Mexican immgrants in this country, and having them matriculate into med school, would be good for the Country.

Quell the ignorance!!! :yes:

From AVERT.org, a UK AIDS charity. See www.avert.org/origins for references.

Much was made in the early years of the epidemic of a so-called 'Patient Zero' who was the basis of a complex "transmission scenario" compiled by Dr. William Darrow and colleagues at the Centre for Disease Control in the US. This epidemiological study showed how 'Patient O' (mistakenly identified in the press as 'Patient Zero') had given HIV to multiple partners, who then in turn transmitted it to others and rapidly spread the virus to locations all over the world. A journalist, Randy Shilts, subsequently wrote an article based on Darrow's findings, which named Patient Zero as a gay Canadian flight attendant called Gaetan Dugas. For several years, Dugas was vilified as a 'mass spreader' of HIV and the original source of the HIV epidemic among gay men. However, four years after the publication of Shilts' article, Dr. Darrow repudiated his study, admitting its methods were flawed and that Shilts' had misrepresented its conclusions.

While Gaetan Dugas was a real person who did eventually die of AIDS, the Patient Zero story was not much more than myth and scaremongering. HIV in the US was to a large degree initially spread by gay men, but this occurred on a huge scale over many years, probably a long time before Dugas even began to travel.

Apparently, it was ignorance that started the "Patient zero" myth, and ignorance propogates it.

I have nothing against Mexican immigrants, or their attending medical school, but like all immigrants, I would prefer they be here legally, as many immigrants in our schools are.

The beauty of being an adult and true scientist is in being able to admit when you are wrong. When I was an AIDS counselor in the early 1990's THAT is the story we were told.

However, that in NO WAY excuses your insinuation that Africans are responsible for spreading Ebola and AIDS. The fact is that because AIDS was originally seen in great numbers in Gay, white men in the US it's logical that a Gay man did in fact get infected in Africa, come to America and spread it among many, many other gay men. Patinet Zero, the man who is according to urban myth is believed to be responsible for "bringing" AIDS to North America, may not have been the first person in North America with AIDS. But with at least 248 DOCUMENTED partners, he certainly seems likely to played a LARGE role in the spread of the disease in the gay, white community in the early 1980's.

Bottom line, Africans can NOT be made to blame for the spread/presence of AIDS in the US. So in the end I'd rather be "ignorant of the true facts", than wrong, unapologetic, borderline racist AND IGNORANT.

Path just as making the statement that black spread X or y *is* wrong, the statements made previously that X or Y people spread syphilis/smallpox/whatever is *also* wrong. If one statement raises hackles how come the other does not? this is something that really bothers me. As long as we are bashing one race it's okay, but as soon as someone makes a comment about another race that is NOT okay, why this double standard?

I guess that some of you guys have issues with how some countries came about...like how this country was taken over by whomever and now it is called USA, well....shoot that is how many countries were founded...yup it was wrong for folks to come here and massacre NA but that was a long time ago and we would NOT be here if not for that event. No matter what you all thing, about America being racist...I guess you guys have NOT traveled much. Every country I have lived in (Spain, Germany) and visited (Canada, South Africa, Finland) ARE way more prejudist than we are. You really have to live in another country to truly experience this. The racism I have seen in Spain towards the gypsies (gitanos), Africans and other ethnic groups is much more overt and apalling that anything I have ever seen here. There are also options for some folks that hate it here so much....like living somewhere else. I guarantee you that this will open many an eyeball..

I really appreciate the previous post. This thread has gotten increasingly rude and very offensive to me. I really wanted to read a discussion on people's ideas to solve a big problem in the US with our illegal immigrant population and how that affects our field of medicine.
Making generalized statements is called stereotyping-whether the group you are generalizing is white, black, or purple. Being of any specific race doesn't allow you rights to generalize anyone. And having friends or not having friends of every race and creed doesn't excuse these generalizations. There have been terrible things that have happened in our country's history and there have been terrible things done to people in this country but we are not the only country that has a dark history--the US is in the majority in that respect. We should look ahead with knowledge of the past to make our country a better place.
And while I respect the historical knowledge that has been presented there have been some really unnecessary back and forth comments that I don't like to see from intelligent women. Let's get back to the topic at hand and if there are members who want to continue a discussion on race in America they can start a new thread with a clearer topic so I can choose not to read it.

Here, here! mrssd, efex, great posts!!

So if we're both wrong why didn't you address AnnaM as well?

There IS no double standard here as far as I'm concerned and since I'm a little bit of every race on the planet except Asian, it's all good to me. But don't expect me as an African American woman to sit idly by while other people tell me how much THEY have done for black folks. THIS is where the "who shot John crap" started in this thread, so lets not disillusion ourselves. In the process of reminding folks of the history of the world a few facts came out. That Europeans raped and killed Native American is a historial fact and as a decendant of people from Ireland (McDougal sp?) as well as a bunch of other places, I feel quite free to call history as I see it. If certain people can't handle the truth, then that's their problem.

So why is it that people always expect black folks to turn the other cheek whenever something offensive is stated? The "rudeness" in this thread began as ignorance like always does.

And why is it that after a "controversial" thread like this one I can ALWAYS count on my rating to go dwon a few notches?? Talk about immature! So should I now look up every one who disagreed/insulted me in this thread and return the favor? I wish I had the time but it's nice to know that I was thoguh of in that moment!! :rolleyes:

I honestly didn't think that she was blaming Africans. I took it as an allusion to the general spread of diseases that is really perpetual in our world. Like I wouldn't hate Asians and Eastern Europeans for being the (suspected) source of the black death to my Northwestern European ancestors. I certainly do not hate them by any means, but you have to acknowledge the fact that white people aren't the sole source of disease and death in this world.

And why do you insist that everyone besides yourself is racist and ignorant?

Good post, efex, I totally agree with you. It is interesting about other countries and racism. I haven't heard a lot about the racism in Europe. Thanks for the input!

I don't think that anyone was expecting "black folks to turn the other cheek whenever something offensive is stated". But why should the rest of us sit by and turn the cheek whenever our ancestors are also taken a shot at? Equality, right? And I haven't ever rated anyone (didn't know that was an option), so I think that it is immature on your part to just go give bad ratings to people who disagree with you. Isn't this a debate?

I WASN'T insinuating that Africans are responsible for spreading Ebola and AIDS. I was trying to make the point that diseases originate all over the world and eventually spread all over the world, and trying to blame one race or group of people for spreading a disease is just pointless, especially if you're talking about syphilis, which most likely spread FROM the New World TO Europe, not vice versa. People travel and diseases spread. I really don't think anyone travels with the express purpose of spreading a disease that they know they carry, and diseases spread just as readily from consensual sex as from rape.

Many people have disagreed with you, path, but I really haven't seen any insults. The thread started out with people giving their considered opinions on the subject and you immediately took offense and started calling people racists. You take offense very easily. You have called me ignorant (and I apologize for returning the compliment in a fit of anger) and a racist, and I am neither. You have also assumed I was a Republican and I am not.

I enjoy debate, but name-calling is something I need to just back off from, so I am exiting this thread. It's been interesting.

One more thing: For an extremely interesting take on the effects of illegal immigration on the medical field, which is, after all, how this thread started, you MUST read the editorial article on page A16 of yesterday's (May 11) Wall Street Journal (and before you make a comment about my choice of reading material, path, you should know that it's a free 6-month subscription that my husband signed me up for. I am not alife-long reader.)

The article is called TB or Not To Be, by Dr. Katrina Firlik, a neurosurgeon, and makes some very interesting points. Be sure to read all the way to the end. It takes an interesting turn in the last paragraph.

Do you think they would have that online? I would like to read that. I am stuck here with family today. We are moving to NC tomorrow! Yay!

Path, my post was not intended for anyone in particular....your name is the one I remember the most and you seem to be the most hurt about some of the comments. Do not take this personally for sure.

What are you talking about? I've NEVER given ANYONE on this site a bad rating, a fact I'm sure the webmaster can verify. So you should get your facts straight before addressing me in the future. Read my posts a little carefully, and try if you can to get a sense of when someone is being sarcastic! :rolleyes:

You know I think I'm going to do what someone suggested to me in a PM and get my ass out of this thread.

This is the comment that I was talking about.

I have a subscription to the WSJ, no need for apologies, no matter what end of the political spectrum one is on. (For someone like me, who could be classified as a near-socialist (but I am also a die-hard advocate of personal responsibility), having a subscription to the WSJ is essential - it keeps me abreast of what the people I need to be watching (e.g. corporations, financial institutions, etc.) are doing.)

I am pasting the WSJ commentary from yesterday below (I am allowed to share it for educational purposes ):

TB or Not to Be

By KATRINA S. FIRLIK
May 11, 2006; Page A16

Several months ago, I had an unusual encounter with an illegal immigrant. He was only 25, from Guatemala, and had been in the U.S. for only three months. He'd been doing landscaping work until he was admitted to Greenwich Hospital in Connecticut, with an excruciating headache. The medical team discovered that he had active tuberculosis, so fulminant that it had even invaded his spinal fluid. Thus, the headache. Needless to say, tuberculosis meningitis is not the type of thing we're used to seeing in Greenwich, or anywhere in the U.S., for that matter.

He ended up in Greenwich Hospital because the one in the town where he'd settled, the neighboring and much less well-to-do Port Chester, had shut down after going bankrupt. That hospital had cared for a large number of patients just like him: no insurance, no English, no papers. When a hospital serving such a demographic goes bankrupt, it leaves a needy population to seek free care elsewhere, passing on the same risk of financial distress to neighboring hospitals, like propagation of an infectious disease.

He'd been in the hospital for a month by the time my surgical services were called upon. He was staying in a private isolation room. His strain of TB was proving to be multi-drug-resistant, and the medical team just couldn't clear it. I was paged by an intern on a Sunday morning. The story: Over the course of 24 hours, the patient had developed a rapidly progressive weakness in his legs to the point where he couldn't even stand, and had lost bladder control. An MRI revealed a large mass that was compressing his spinal cord to an impossibly thin strand. The mass spanned an incredibly lengthy 10 vertebral segments, nearly from the base of his neck to the top of his low back. I'd never seen anything like it. Neither had the internist, the infectious disease specialist, the neurologist or the radiologist. We don't work in the Third World.

I took the patient to the operating room and spent the rest of my Sunday in the hospital. I wasn't thrilled. I wore a special mask designed to hug the face tighter than most OR masks, but the thought crossed my mind that I was putting myself and the entire OR staff at risk. I made the longest incision I'd ever made in my surgical career, carefully opened 10 segments of spine, and worked away at the inflammatory mass that was plastered to his spinal cord. I called a pathologist in to examine the pieces of specimen I was removing. He heard the full story, refused to contaminate his equipment, and left.

It wasn't possible to get more than half the mass out without risking even more damage to his spinal cord, so I stopped, forcing myself to settle for the less-than-satisfying achievement of having at least decompressed the spinal cord by removing the bony elements from behind (unroofing the spinal canal to allow for more room). Would he ever walk again? Doubtful. In fact, I'd phoned another neurosurgeon while in the OR, just to talk through this case. He'd never encountered anything similar either, but convinced me that the patient wouldn't even live long.

The patient spent an additional six weeks in the hospital after surgery, not because of surgical concerns, but because the medical team still couldn't clear his infection. His sputum samples kept coming back positive. After 2½ months on multiple antibiotics, he was finally clear to leave the hospital. He left in a wheelchair. I knew I'd never see him again.

Why should our hospitals have to eat the cost of disease brought in by undocumented workers? I found out that his bill totaled $200,000. This excludes professional fees, meaning everything that would have been billed separately by the many physicians treating him over 10 weeks (including what I'd have charged for surgery). We all worked for him free.

How many other diseases are being brought in by how many other undocumented and unexamined workers? Somehow, here, a social worker was able to track down the friends and relatives who came to the U.S. with this patient. They all tested positive for TB, and were all working behind the scenes in local restaurants.

I'm certainly in favor of figuring out a way to offer health insurance and proper medical care to all Americans (as long as whatever plan is enacted doesn't compromise the quality of care or the incentives for medical innovation). But I don't think we can justify the same for just anyone who wants to jump over the borders. And how do you handle the PR quandary when other patients in the hospital, there for elective gall-bladder or knee surgery, ask questions? I know what goes through their minds when they see the isolation rooms with ominous warning signs, as nurses get fully gowned, gloved and masked before cracking open the doors.

I thought I'd never see this young man again, but I was wrong. Six months after surgery, he walked into my office. Walked in. No wheelchair, no walker, no cane, not even a limp. Not only that, he told me (through a translator) that he was looking for a new job. I thought about all the American workers I'd operated on, for far less serious problems, who were quick to bring in disability paperwork after surgery, hoping I'd deem them permanently disabled, unfit for any line of work. And at that moment, the resentment I'd felt six months earlier was replaced by something quite different -- admiration.

Dr. Firlik, a neurosurgeon in Greenwich, Conn., is author of "Another Day in the Frontal Lobe," just published by Random House.

I guess I lied about staying out :p , but thanks Sweet for adding something relevant to this discussion.

I'd like to add that an American workers would likely have sued the doctor and the hospital for some trumped up charge as well. :rolleyes:

PS- Gotta LOVE a young lady that know's a thing or 2 about diplomacy (which I DO happen to have I just get so sick and tired of having to bite my tounge and smile in my "regular" life )

Thanks Efex, I really apprectaie you taking the time out to say that. Yeah, it would be an understatement to say that I was a little offended by some of what was said in this thread. I guess a little SDN has FINALLY leaked in over here!

Much love ladies! :grouphug:

Your forgiven for lying! :p And sometimes it is hard for different people to see another's perspective unless they have walked in the other's shoes. Emotional wounds take time to heal even if they were inflicted centuries ago. It is just not that easy.

Thanks for putting the WSJ article up, Sweet. I was really struck by it but had no way of posting it, so I'm glad you were able to. It said a lot of the same things I feel, both pro and con re: illegal immigration.

And a thought I wanted to reiterate here (it will echo the first point I made in my "plan" post) and PremedRN's post:

We all take this very personally and certainly tempers flare, we get offended, we speak (or write ) in anger. It is hard not to take things personally. It is nearly impossible to know what the experiences of another set of people (say a racial minority or an immigrant community) are unless you are one of them. And with all due respect and utmost gentleness of spirit I want to posit that no matter how many friends of a certain race/creed/color/etc. one may have, one is still not part of that experience.

I am an immigrant, legal, yes, the parent with whom I resided came here on an invitation from NASA to reside and work in the US permanently (my other parent came here as a political asylee from the former USSR some time before that). But even for a legal immigrant life can get pretty ugly at times and I would have never known had I not been one. I look white (so that's the box I check on all my forms). I am the mother of brown children, and before I had them I had NO idea what it was like (despite friends, etc.). To illustrate, briefly (and I do not want to make this a personal issue, it is just a good example):

I have a highly-gifted child who is in elementary school. The first school my kiddo attended had a 60% minority population. Our child was identified as being gifted and was recommended for the special school for gifted children that the district operates. We applied and our child took the test administered at the school. We received a letter stating that our child had scored average (no sign of being gifted) and was not admitted. I asked to see the test results and was refused on the grounds that the tests are the property of the school and are "confidential" :scratchchin: (still trying to figure this one out). When I called the principal to express my concern over the situation, he blew me off telling me that the test is unequivocal and he sarcastically suggested that if I really don't believe him I can have my child tested at an independent center if I am "up to paying $500 out of pocket". Of course I am ! (Not because I like throwing money away, but because I come from a long academic tradition and there is nothing more valuable I could imagine doing with that $500. Now, you see, I HAD the $500, so keep this in mind for families for whom that $500 means food or shelter). They did the full-scale IQ test and our kiddo came in 2 (yes a whopping 2) standard deviations above the mean. They gave a different test a week later with another psychologist in the same center(free of charge this time) and the results were consistent. So the test results were forwarded to the school. I called to follow up and was told that I would get a letter from the principal. The letter was a most flippant and flagrantly asinine piece of work, which basically said: Oh sorry, wow yes, you definitely have a smart kiddo who is TOTALLY qualified for the school, but sorry we have already filled all the spots and we cannot offer you anything. Try again next year.

You can imagine how livid I was at this point. I did my research (the school district is overall 40% minority while this particular school is only 12% minority, of which 8% were classified as Asian (many of whom I came to find out later are adopted children of white families), while less than 3% of the district kids are Asian (so you can figure out the odds for a brown and/or Hispanic child). I wrote a powerfully and eloquently worded letter, attaching my research statistics, copies of my child's test scores, and sent copies to the school, to the district authorities, to the board of education, to the local NAACP chapter. I gently threatened in my letter to go to the media. Three days after I mailed copies of my letter to all the different addressees, I received a call from the principal. He was "very apologetic" and he was not sure about how this "miscommunication" had happened, the "file must have gotten mixed up with another applicant's", blah, blah, blah... and finally "of COURSE" our child was accepted into the school and they "couldn't WAIT" for us to join the school community.

The point is, had I not been a well-educated, well-spoken, strong mother with an extra $500 sitting around or at least somehow available, who could advocate on behalf of her brown child, that child would have NEVER made it into that school. (Now imagine if you are brown AND an immigrant!) The consequences? A gifted child who was bored to tears (LITERALLY) in a regular classroom, who would not have the chance for a superior educational experience, who was getting disillusioned and would eventually completely loose interest in academia, could easily become a deviant (research shows that bright children with active and exploring minds who are bored are apt to become delinquent) and even possibly a criminal at some point. Then the cycle would be perpetuated ad infinitum. Think of all the missed opportunities! (And this was just on an elementary school level...)

Now, if any of you think that I am exaggerating even one little bit or I am misrepresenting any facts, I would be happy to scan in all the evidence (marking out names, locations, etc.) and post it here for your review. If anyone thinks that this is just an isolated incident, I just want to say that I am not even in a southern state.

Sorry I know my previous post is a little off subject (and I have tried to stay on subject here), but I think that it does relate to the issue of immigration too.

I KNEW I liked you for some reason! You and I have GOT to get together if you move to the DC area. :yes:

You see, people think if you live in Amercia, life will be dandy and with hard work you can make something of yourself and be gven a fiar shake in life. Well, as the illegal immigrants who pay taxes, often working in jobs most of us wouldn't give to an enemy, know working hard isnt' always going to get you rewards in life. Sometimes, you have to shake things up a bit (which I have NO problem doing :p ) as was the case with the immigrants, legal and illegal who protested across the country.

I mean people are talking in this thread about breaking the law. Well how many of you have cut the tags off your mattresses, and did you know that was illegal too? What about speeding? Better question, if you were living in Mexico, wouldn't YOU try as hard as you could to get to America even as an illegal immigrant?

I still think that if you have a criminal record, you shouldn't be allowed in. But maybe I'm a bit paranoid with the terrorism hulabaloo.

THat is horrible about those schools. My dd is starting kindergarten this Fall, and I am just terrified. I went to school in the inner city, and I was fine, but this is my baby we're talking about!

OK...I know this is not what we are really talking about here...but I just have to know...is it *really* illegal to remove the tags from your matress? :boxedin:

It has never been illegal for the purchaser/consumer to remove a mattress tag. The admonition has always been meant for the manufacturer or mattress retailer. Note that the tag states ..."except by the consumer." Some years ago, this wording was added because of the very reason of this "urban myth" that the purchaser of the mattress was under legal order not to remove the tag.

I guess I'm full of urban myths :rolleyes: but the statement I made about speeding is STILL true right?

I have so many of the same views and opinions that have already been mentioned so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. However, I feel compelled to state my opinion. America is America, plane and simple. I don't agree with a lot of it's history or present decisions. But, I thank the Lord that I was not born, nor living, in Dar-fur at this present time (due to present circumstances I chose Dar-fur, not because it's the only horrific place in the world to live). We do have it pretty good here, as much as W sucks, we do. It is very clear from reading this post, that every "race" has very different opinions ands views on the present and the past. This is a scary thing as Americans in the present time. We are in the present and as much as we may hate the past, we need to recognise what is going on in our society TODAY. I'm not by any means implying that we should ignore the past, but we are in some serious s**t presently and with all of us so hell bent on fixing the past and being pissed off about the past, we are closing our eyes to the present. Feel free to agree with me, and frankly, I don't so much care, but we are headed towards WORLD WAR 3 and that's pretty much a guarantee. We have far too much going on right now to be super focused on what happened forever ago. My fiance has gone to a mandatory school (he's a police officer) in order to be prepared for terrorist activity in our local schools. We as Americans have a lot on our plate right now and we need to pull together as one or WE WILL see the wrath of war and that is a FACT!
As far as immigrants, I assume that someone from my family was an immigrant (anyone able to verify history is deceased) considering my maiden name is Heimbach. For anyone that doesn't know, that is German, and there is a town called Heimbach, Germany. I would love to know my heritage, but I can't. But, I do know that as far as med school is considered, I am a non trad applying to ONE school and I would hope that I would get chosen over an immigrant who has not been born and raised here in the US. I feel that that is my right as an American, and if someone from another country who went to school in another country, got into that med school before me, I would be ticked right off. Being born and raised here is another story, as I feel they would have the same rights as me. I'm just not to keen on the fact that it's hard enough to get in to med school, let alone taking foreign grads. That's just my opinion, please don't freak out on me, I'm not trying to be degrading or antagonistic.

War is a good subject.....


Even though I'm a republican in thoery, I voted Democrat so while I see we are headed for war, I don't feel as responsible for it as I would had I voted for "W"!! :p


A good question is would we expect these legal and illegal immigrants to go to war for US even though so many of us seem so upset that they are in our country. I know that there are immigrants fighting for us already (I'm assuming they're legal). But if I were an immigrant, legal or illegal, I'm not sure how comfortable I would be with going to war for a country that didn't want me here in the first place.

if you're an African-American, you have a choice. You could commit a crime, or not, and possibly still go. The prison/judicial system in this country is as big of a mess as the healthcare system.

dayum. you just came right out and said that. I know a lot of people think crazy ish like this, but I've never run across anyone bold enough to actually say it. Maybe it's because of the anonomity. On one hand I want to give you applause for your boldness, but on the other hand...I want to give you a swift kick in the arse to a library or a REAL class on history ASAP!

What is the divide? Why can't you compare them?

This is another one of these touchy set of questions. You should also ask, "Is it fair to have to go to a school because I was born poor where I have to share a textbook with 3 or 4 people? How the heck can you share a textbook like that and expect to learn something? Is it fair to have to fight for my life between home and school because the neighborhood that I can afford to live in is so bad? Is it fair that I can't get a decent education because I have to worry so much about my very survival? Is it fair that this country was founded on the blood, sweat, tears, and backs of my ancestors...yet when the Katrina storm hit people that looked like me were called refugees? Is it fair that for over 400 years this country was run on WELFARE provided by African labor, yet have the audacity to look down upon someone that is on welfare today like this country wasn't built by it?"

There are so many more questions that need to be asked when determining how fair something is.

because I don't believe that the point is what country you are from. What those poorly written forms are trying to convey is what color you are. The fact remains that racism is very real, and even though we'd all like to pretend that it's not, it's based on color. No one can tell me otherwise, and anyone who believes so is a darn fool. My daughter didn't even have a clue about color. But as soon as she hit public school kindergarten, she realized that having long blonde hair meant better treatment. Thus she came home fantasizing about it, and pointing out how beautiful every girl with yellow hair was. The children were no doubt beautiful, but the point is how many other children were beautiful as well that she did not see anymore? How does an African-American kindergardener go from not recognizing color at all to realizing that because she's lighter she gets treated better...and being proud to say ish like "I was a white baby"? (which shouldn't matter anyway.)Color is very real, and in this country no matter how much we try to cover it up, the underlying theme is that white is right. Even the babies can see it.

This whole thread is making my head hurt. I truly do love all people, and hope that one day we can learn more about each other in an effort to truly understand and have compassion for each other. I really think that the educational system has done a very piss poor job in teaching history and culture.

My point was, that if America can find ways to pay for indigent people (because they are in prison)why cannot they find ways to help other people who will/are contributing to the funds yet not supposed to reep the benefits of it. :scratchchin:

Wow.... wow!

If a person is capable of feeling THIS self-righteous about one thing, then that person is capable of feeling self-righteous about other things too. So with this logic, because one is born and raised in the US one should get a better seat on the bus, have access to better facilities, get better jobs, have a better chance at med school?

Funny, but this is the EXACT SAME sense of entitlement that gave/gives rise to racism. The only difference is, Rosa Parks was sent to the end of the bus because of her skin color, and Elena Petrova (fictitious Russian name, I didn't want to use a Hispanic name ) will be sent to the end of the med school admission line because of her immigrant status. I really fail to see a difference (the "us" vs. "them" is now slightly shifting from "white skin" vs. "brown skin" to "born here" vs. "not born here"?) ... and honestly, it deeply frightens me! :scratchchin: ... somehow I doubt it, but then again... this is very much the "apres moi le deluge" mentality that has brought down many a power throughout history... )

Yeah. I saw your point. I don't think that we can expect the government to fix things anytime too soon. At least not until there is something else even more screwed up. Then this issue might get fixed so money can be made off of the new one. The truth is that there is big money in chaos. Lots of jobs too.

Exactly. I'd go so far as to say that because this country was essentially founded on a "racist grounds" it's hard to imagine that it will ge one of the great dynasties of human civilization. NO great civilization every survived long by marginilizing a significant portion of their population.

This kinda reminds me of what I've heard a few radical people say about why we lost the Vietnam war (besides the obvious, that we shouldn't have been there in the first place). The people who were mainly sent over there were the white folks who were too poor to pull a "George Bush" and blacks from the inner city, just a few years past the abolishment of Jim Crow laws. They essentially had no reason to give the war their "all".

I'm back! We just moved 900 miles away, and I finally have the internet again. I don't know how comfortable I would be with a lot of immigrants in the military. Do other countries allow it? I mean, I am proud that they would feel loyal to us and want to help, but then there is the whole security thing, but I am sure that I am overreacting and it will be fine with immigrants in the military. Especially, what if in the military they encounter something like Guantanamo or other (what I consider) war crimes, will they stay loyal?

I am sorry, but what does this have to do with anything? I have been extremely poor, even homeless in my life, and I do not expect any handouts. It's nice for help sometimes, but I don't think that I've ever talked to anyone who would be proud of getting something for who they are, not what they've accomplished.

Absolutely.

I actually agree with pschmom1, this is the way it is in many countries. We need to take care of the people that we already have here before we start taking on more people. I am not an isolationist, but we have a lot of problems in our country. We need to fix things like our horrible rates (IMO) of poverty, unemployment, literacy, birth rate, and general lack of education. If we can educate our "citizens" more fully first, then hopefully there will be less unemployment, less poverty, and thus more money to open slots for foreigners in our schools. This is the way it is most places, so why is it so unfair to have that here?

I humbly beg to differ... in most industrialized nations things are not at ALL this way. People who were not born and raised in that country are not barred from educational institutions and they are judged on their merit when applying to medical school, not on whether they were born and raised in that country.

The United States benefit quite a bit from the talents, education and training of individuals educated in other systems (free of charge to the US and usually at the expense of the other nation), but funnily when an immigrant wants to go to medical school here, at his/her OWN expense (to the tune of $40,000 a year, give or take a few thousand)... then suddenly we want to "take care of our own"... Ironically, foreign-born doctors are more likely and more willing to treat our indigent populations, to take jobs in rural areas, to care for "our own" Americans who cannot get care in this system... (I would be happy to provde statistics and references, if anyone wishes to explore this further.)

Fundamentally, I have to respectfully point out that the inclindation to judge a person by his/her birth certificate (similar to skin color), rather than his/her merits, is fundamentally racist - in the broadest sense of the word.

My attention span isn't that long today, so I can't say that I read all of that line for line. I will say this though. Genocide is genocide. That article doesn't account for the Native Americans being given small pox infested blankets and being sent on the Trail of Tears. Nor does it account for the mass amounts of genocide in this country concerning Africans. Genocide is genocide to me. I agree to disagree.

It has a lot to do with everything you wrote. You wrote a set of questions about race/skin tone/sex. There are a lot of inequalities to consider before you can just try to compare accomplishments. Bottom line, a person who doesn't have to worry about economics or skin color has a better chance than a person who does. And if you look at minority races, there are way more have nots than haves as compared to the majority race. You asked is it fair to give someone something based on their skin tone/heritage? Well is it fair to compare "accomplishments" in a system that is clearly unequal?

It's almost like having a race where one participant has a broken leg and a broken arm racing against the other participant who has nothing hurt. Sure, there is a shot that the hurt participant can win. There always is. But if that person doesn't, it's ridiculous to try to act like the playing field was so equal.

I was actually looking at schools in other countries a couple of months ago. I have always been interested in living abroad. I found that it would be highly difficult to get a chance to move to the UK, Sweden, Denmark, France, Iceland, or Canada. Canada was probably the easiest, but it is still incredibly difficult to pay for your education abroad if you are poor like me. If your family is paying for it and has connections it may be easier, but from what I have read here and on other forums, it is very difficult to get into most other countries. The ones that I am interested in, at least. I haven't inquired to ones outside the above list.

[/QUOTE]It has a lot to do with everything you wrote. You wrote a set of questions about race/skin tone/sex. There are a lot of inequalities to consider before you can just try to compare accomplishments. Bottom line, a person who doesn't have to worry about economics or skin color has a better chance than a person who does. And if you look at minority races, there are way more have nots than haves as compared to the majority race. You asked is it fair to give someone something based on their skin tone/heritage? Well is it fair to compare "accomplishments" in a system that is clearly unequal?

It's almost like having a race where one participant has a broken leg and a broken arm racing against the other participant who has nothing hurt. Sure, there is a shot that the hurt participant can win. There always is. But if that person doesn't, it's ridiculous to try to act like the playing field was so equal. [/QB][/QUOTE]

How do you really delineate fairly when there should be provisions based on skin tone/heritage versus "accomplishments". It may be true that there are more haves than have nots in the "majority race", but in making such a blanket statement, you overlook the have nots of the majority race altogether. Is it fair for the white kid who grew up underpriviledged and in poverty with none of the benefits "the haves" had to be denied the same help available to the minority kids who may or may not have grown up in the same dire circumstances?

I won't pretend to be as well-versed in all of this as many of you are, but it seems to me that we continue to put the emphasis on race or minority/majority status when perhaps we should focus more on the actual experiences/history and accomplishments of each individual.

It's a pretty huge problem (understatment!) and I certainly do not have all the answers.

It has a lot to do with everything you wrote. You wrote a set of questions about race/skin tone/sex. There are a lot of inequalities to consider before you can just try to compare accomplishments. Bottom line, a person who doesn't have to worry about economics or skin color has a better chance than a person who does. And if you look at minority races, there are way more have nots than haves as compared to the majority race. You asked is it fair to give someone something based on their skin tone/heritage? Well is it fair to compare "accomplishments" in a system that is clearly unequal?

It's almost like having a race where one participant has a broken leg and a broken arm racing against the other participant who has nothing hurt. Sure, there is a shot that the hurt participant can win. There always is. But if that person doesn't, it's ridiculous to try to act like the playing field was so equal. [/QUOTE]

How do you really delineate fairly when there should be provisions based on skin tone/heritage versus "accomplishments". It may be true that there are more haves than have nots in the "majority race", but in making such a blanket statement, you overlook the have nots of the majority race altogether. Is it fair for the white kid who grew up underpriviledged and in poverty with none of the benefits "the haves" had to be denied the same help available to the minority kids who may or may not have grown up in the same dire circumstances?

I won't pretend to be as well-versed in all of this as many of you are, but it seems to me that we continue to put the emphasis on race or minority/majority status when perhaps we should focus more on the actual experiences/history and accomplishments of each individual.

It's a pretty huge problem (understatment!) and I certainly do not have all the answers. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I agree that there is no easy answer. I can post from my experiences though. Say you have a poor white kid and a poor mexican kid. Everything being exactly equal among them. When the poor white kid makes it out of poverty by whatever means, he/she will probably never have experienced discrimination based solely on his/her skin color. Do you know what it's like to be at the office and hear racial remarks from those in authority? To hear Mexican people called sand niggers? To have someone say they nigger rigged a spreadsheet? To be asked do all black folks like hot sauce? To have to work double hard because you are poor, and then triple hard because you are a minority and seen as being somehow inferior? See, when the white kid does make it out of poverty, he/she is probably better able to blend into society a lot better than one who isn't white. But skin color doesn't blend in too well. You can't hide it under a really nice suit and tie or dress. I find myself only wondering how much of a glass ceiling exists that I can't see...because the ceiling that I can see is pretty thick.

How do you really delineate fairly when there should be provisions based on skin tone/heritage versus "accomplishments". It may be true that there are more haves than have nots in the "majority race", but in making such a blanket statement, you overlook the have nots of the majority race altogether. Is it fair for the white kid who grew up underpriviledged and in poverty with none of the benefits "the haves" had to be denied the same help available to the minority kids who may or may not have grown up in the same dire circumstances?

I won't pretend to be as well-versed in all of this as many of you are, but it seems to me that we continue to put the emphasis on race or minority/majority status when perhaps we should focus more on the actual experiences/history and accomplishments of each individual.

It's a pretty huge problem (understatment!) and I certainly do not have all the answers. [/b][/QUOTE]

I agree that there is no easy answer. I can post from my experiences though. Say you have a poor white kid and a poor mexican kid. Everything being exactly equal among them. When the poor white kid makes it out of poverty by whatever means, he/she will probably never have experienced discrimination based solely on his/her skin color. Do you know what it's like to be at the office and hear racial remarks from those in authority? To hear Mexican people called sand niggers? To have someone say they nigger rigged a spreadsheet? To be asked do all black folks like hot sauce? To have to work double hard because you are poor, and then triple hard because you are a minority and seen as being somehow inferior? See, when the white kid does make it out of poverty, he/she is probably better able to blend into society a lot better than one who isn't white. But skin color doesn't blend in too well. You can't hide it under a really nice suit and tie or dress. I find myself only wondering how much of a glass ceiling exists that I can't see...because the ceiling that I can see is pretty thick. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I really am not disagreeing with you. I know that what you are talking about is real and happening. But I guess I still have a nagging question. When we talk about people "making it out of poverty", one thing I see is more ways being afforded for minorites to get out of poverty in the first place. I know it's not fair to face prejudice at any time, but aren't we still practicing prejudice if we provide more opportunities based on minority status for people coming from similar disadvantaged situations? Shouldn't we maybe provide the help based on the need and not the minority status?

I half regret posting anything, because I fear not coming across the way I mean to. To know that people are suffering based on something as unchangeable and beautiful as skin tone kills me. If it were up to me, I would create a Pollyanna Wonder World where we all loved each other unconditionally. And, of course, I would put an end to all suffering and misery. So knowing that the reality is far from that and also, admittedly, not knowing which way to turn in order to improve things...I'm left grappling, too...

I am so sick of bright women calling each other racist when we are really all talking about wanting a fair chance at survival. You don't know how many times I have been discriminated against for having blonde hair and blue eyes--people seem to think this somehow makes my life easier, and I can definitely tell you it does not in this field. How many times have I heard I dream of Jeanie comments when I pull my hair back in a ponytail? Or snickers that they know how I will get into medical school?! People are arses--sorry, but if given a chance, anyone could theoretically excuse why they are justified and another is not. I understand I will never know what it's like to be discriminated against for skin color, other things I can't change with contacts or hair color, but gosh darnit, at a base level I DO understand human nature and I am sick of it all. Statistics can be used to justify anything. Saying one is racist because one disagrees with the party line that illegals are welcome because they will work for less is a crock. My husband has lost multiple jobs to KNOWN illegals because they will work for 2 dollars less without benefits (8/hour instead of 10). We can hardly survive on 10 with both of us working and are allowed WIC on that income! This tells me the government recognizes we are poor, but refuses to insist on a living wage! The only way we can establish a living wage is mandate that ALL companies pay the darn living wage! It is not racist, it is survivalist. I want everyone to enjoy America and thrive in it. However, because of proximity, Mexican citizens have more likelihood of subverting the system. What about Russians who are stuck waiting? Do you know how dangerous the Russian business climate has become? Assasinations are a daily occurrence. They are waiting. Who is more important? We have to have a system of deciding this on a relativity scale to have any hope of fairness and we must insist that no one subvert the system. I can't help but feel that amnesty in any form would reward those who have subverted the system.

When I am at WIC, I have been warned via poster and verbally to guard my children's SSN diligently because they could be stolen by illegals to get aid. I know people this has happened to, and it is not like they were careless. This is a huge, huge problem, and sadly it seems as a society one side wants to emotionally blackmail the other as though they are morally bankrupt because they want to survive, too.

As far as foreign docs, in personal experience many don't learn the language adequately. It seems most learn enough to get by and then get irritated with others when they are not understood. As a transcriptionist, I guarantee I spend far more time transcribing ESL docs--they get more blanks, create longer sound files because they don't learn the dictation system, and cost more per line. This is the general rule among ESL docs. It is fact based on experience and not conjecture based on emotion. There have been countless times patients have misunderstood their ESL physicians and are calling nurses, stopping nurses for long explanations, even stopping me as a volunteer to explain what the doc just said. While foreign docs may truly be more inclined to serve indigent populations, imagine the extra cost in healthcare when their patients get into unneccesary emergencies because of failure to understand the doc. My SIL has worked hard to develop her English skills so that this is avoided, but many ESLs just refuse to.

What truly scares me is that what if by the time I get through med school I still can't make a living wage due to student loans?!!! Poverty sucks period, and from what I see, things are rough all over. We need to work together with fairness and respect extended liberally or we won't ever come to a just course of action. If you search your heart, you know that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. I am so Polyanna, too, and I think if bright minds work together, we can come to a reasonable solution, though you know darn well you can't please everyone all of the time. We will all take a hit if the cost of living goes up relative to everyone making a living wage, but it is worth it and I think it should be the focus.

I think the American medical system is heavily geared in favor of foreign docs vis-a-vis med school debt burdens. With the exception of highly competitive specialties (and even this is not an absolute), foreign doctors arrive in the US with little or no student loan debt and after passing the USMLE, can obtain a residency and be on par professionally with most American docs sans the $200k medical school debt. Now, how is that fair?

What about the genocide of the Afrikaners and other whites in South Africa? What about the genocide of white farmers in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), a land that was once the Breadbasket of Africa? Does anyone know the significance of the phrase, "Just wait until Mandela dies."

I personally believe that if the US were TRULY an equal opportunity nation, medical schools would be open admission institutions for all college graduates. They should also offer part-time options to encourage more career changers and non-trads. Whether or not you obtain a job offer after graduation would be up to you, but I feel that if you want to study medicine, no adcom should have that much power over your life or future income potential. Who died and made them God? Also, how exactly is it democratic to have people spending thousands of dollars and traveling to interviews all over the country without the guarantee of admission? We Americans could learn a great deal from the French IMHO. I love the way they took to the streets when Chirac and Villepin wanted to tweak their employment laws.

I may be opening a real can of worms here, and I can't say that I've read through every post here, but here's my opinion.

I think that everyone should be admitted to colleges/med schools based on their merits alone--not on their country of origin, race or skin color. To me, this includes affirmative action.

I was sitting in a med school admitting office waiting for my interview, when someone came in and asked about requirements for "minority application". The requirement given was MCAT cumulative of 15 and GPA of 3.0. If I, a white female, had those stats, the school would have thrown my application away right away. However, simply bec. the applicant had a different skin color, they would consider admission for them. First of all, this is not considering each person based on her merits alone, this is discrimination just the same way as favoring a US citizen is. Second of all, it made me think--how do I know that the doctor of color who is treating me is really good enough, or if they just passed through bec. it boosted the "minority" numbers for the school?

Don't take this the wrong way, I know some excellent minority doctors, but in the long run this can compromise the quality of medical education and if the general public finds out, it will make people avoid minority doctors.

My father was the victim of "quotas" bec. he was not admitted to his first choice college bec. they had filled their quota of Jews. I was denied admission to my second choice college. Although I was not told why, I suspect it was bec. they already had enough whites. My SAT and high school scores were on the high end of competetive for that college, and on my interview they told me that they wanted me there.

Basically, I agree with the above that we need to get rid of quotas, stop evaluating people on meaningless things like place of birth and color of skin, and pay attention to things that count.

I haven't read through all the posts either but the ones I did didn't represent my point of view so I wanted to add it. I don't believe in dividing the world up into countries and then fighting to keep people out of "your" country. Idealistic yes but hey, so isn't "treat others as you would like to be treated." This country has been the instrument of terrible conditions in other countries-through imperialism, invasions, wars to protect the financial interests of corporations, etc. Our history includes raping, murdering, and enslaving the native americans who were on this continent first. To now stand here and try to push other people out, and/or deny the incredible contributions they make is in my view morally reprehensible. I believe that individual countries and smaller untis and larger have their benefits in organizing human activities propogating our heritage, but our loyalties should be to the human race as a whole and how to best help all of us survive and thrive. As a doctor, I am always happy to see "illegal immigrants" benefiting from some of our medical care-although really only theaffluent and well-insured get the best. Still, it's good to see them and I have been proud to treat them.

Starting a new thread to keep from hijacking this one!

What about the attempted systematic enslavement, rape, and killings of Scots and Irish? These things happen to people no matter the skin color. It's not a matter of whitey vs. the world. You are right. But I don't know the significance of the phrase. I am not too well versed in much African genocide outside Rwanda.

We can keep listing atrocities that would fill yet endless pages... PBS ran a documentary last month about the Armenian genocide... what about that... and what about Cambodia... and what about Catholics massacring Protestants in France in 1572... and what about... and what about...

The bottom line is that atrocities of one or even many group(s)/individual(s) do not excuse anyone else's horrific deeds. So I am trying to figure out exactly what is the point of listing every horrible act one can think of or google?

The fact remains that unless one is a Native American (100%) then one is an immigrant in this country as of (at the very most) 400 years. And, compared to most of the illegal immigrants of today, the ancestors were far more "illegal". The "illegal immigrants" of today are not coming into the neighborhoods of the "natives" and running them out of their homes and off their lands at gunpoint. Additionally, 400 years is a relatively short period in history, and MOST people’s family trees do not go back even those 400 years on this continent, so most of us who are discussing this issue are more recent immigrants (maybe, 30, 50, 100 years of history of being continuously born and raised in the US in all the branches of the family tree).

I think we all agree that the system of dealing with immigration/immigrants is in need of serious reform, but being hostile towards immigrants, in my very humble opinion, should really not be a part of the solution.

There is a white genocide currently taking place in South Africa and Zimbabwe. The phrase, "Just wait until Mandela dies," is being used to taunt and scare South African whites. Many black South Africans aren't even native to the region as the country has been bombarded with African immigrants and their descendants from other countries. Now, I ask you, who is more African? An Afrikaner (white South African of Dutch descent) whose family has lived in South Africa for hundreds of years, or a black African whose family immigrated from Zambia two years ago. It's not politically correct to talk about the genocide of whites, though, so I doubt the mainstream media or Oprah Winfrey will be doing a heart-strings-type story on their plight anytime soon. :no:

Just a quick note. I am a privileged, wealthy white person who qualifies for WIC, Medicaid, and various need-based government grants. I live in the nicest of neighborhoods, go to the nicest of schools, see plays on a regular basis, etc. Qualifying for WIC doesn't mean someone is really poor or disadvantaged. I don't use WIC or Medicaid because it would truly be an abuse in my case, but I have friends with no student debt and promising lucrative careers ahead who are on both.

See, that ticks me off. Because I am not privileged and poor and they cut off my medicaid for me and the kids. My SIL and her SO make much more money than we do. Her parents (she is totally spoiled) pay a lot of her bills, she shops constantly, and she gets medicaid and food stamps. Things they told ME we can't have, though we make less and have three kids instead of her one. I want to know how they figure these things up.

Luckily we just moved and my dh got a somewhat better job, so we will be more poor after the money for insurance gets taken out, but at least we will be able to see a doctor.

In the news today:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/23/dobbs.may24/index.html

So is it really hard to migrate to another country from the US? How hard is it to get into med school in the UK after all? What about financial aid?

dnw826, you are in Illinois, the Land of Blago. Just sign your kids up for AllKids. No income guidelines. I have no objection to providing health care coverage to kids whose parents can't afford it, but Blago is spending my pension to cover everyone's kids, no matter what their income, and that's just wrong, with the state up to its ears in debt.

Actually, for some reason I got refused. But we are in NC now, anyways. Yay!

Oops, then you gotta update your profile. I think AllKids starts June 1 or July 1, so I guess you missed it.