Doctor Forum
Resources

Features

Resources

(Views)Popular Topics
FUN - Word Association Game 934836
McCain's MomVP 803227
MomMD Member Mosaic - Introductions and Reintroductions!! 696713
2010 Pregnancy updates 267429
married momof3 resident2008 250852
illegal immigration and impact on medical field 239743
Affirmative action debate FINALLY invades Mommd 196777
Don't Quit This Day Job -- NYT op-ed 166610
Managing debt out of residency 152366
The "applying to med school this year" support thread 148716
Who's Online
1 registered (westcoastmd), 346 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 14 of 16 < 1 2 ... 12 13 14 15 16 >
Topic Options
#66288 - 05/19/06 10:34 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
Dreamer Offline
Elite Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally posted by Asha Yakini Kidawa:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
[b]
It has a lot to do with everything you wrote. You wrote a set of questions about race/skin tone/sex. There are a lot of inequalities to consider before you can just try to compare accomplishments. Bottom line, a person who doesn't have to worry about economics or skin color has a better chance than a person who does. And if you look at minority races, there are way more have nots than haves as compared to the majority race. You asked is it fair to give someone something based on their skin tone/heritage? Well is it fair to compare "accomplishments" in a system that is clearly unequal?

It's almost like having a race where one participant has a broken leg and a broken arm racing against the other participant who has nothing hurt. Sure, there is a shot that the hurt participant can win. There always is. But if that person doesn't, it's ridiculous to try to act like the playing field was so equal.
How do you really delineate fairly when there should be provisions based on skin tone/heritage versus "accomplishments". It may be true that there are more haves than have nots in the "majority race", but in making such a blanket statement, you overlook the have nots of the majority race altogether. Is it fair for the white kid who grew up underpriviledged and in poverty with none of the benefits "the haves" had to be denied the same help available to the minority kids who may or may not have grown up in the same dire circumstances?

I won't pretend to be as well-versed in all of this as many of you are, but it seems to me that we continue to put the emphasis on race or minority/majority status when perhaps we should focus more on the actual experiences/history and accomplishments of each individual.

It's a pretty huge problem (understatment!) and I certainly do not have all the answers. [/b][/QUOTE]

I agree that there is no easy answer. I can post from my experiences though. Say you have a poor white kid and a poor mexican kid. Everything being exactly equal among them. When the poor white kid makes it out of poverty by whatever means, he/she will probably never have experienced discrimination based solely on his/her skin color. Do you know what it's like to be at the office and hear racial remarks from those in authority? To hear Mexican people called sand niggers? To have someone say they nigger rigged a spreadsheet? To be asked do all black folks like hot sauce? To have to work double hard because you are poor, and then triple hard because you are a minority and seen as being somehow inferior? See, when the white kid does make it out of poverty, he/she is probably better able to blend into society a lot better than one who isn't white. But skin color doesn't blend in too well. You can't hide it under a really nice suit and tie or dress. I find myself only wondering how much of a glass ceiling exists that I can't see...because the ceiling that I can see is pretty thick. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I really am not disagreeing with you. I know that what you are talking about is real and happening. But I guess I still have a nagging question. When we talk about people "making it out of poverty", one thing I see is more ways being afforded for minorites to get out of poverty in the first place. I know it's not fair to face prejudice at any time, but aren't we still practicing prejudice if we provide more opportunities based on minority status for people coming from similar disadvantaged situations? Shouldn't we maybe provide the help based on the need and not the minority status?

I half regret posting anything, because I fear not coming across the way I mean to. To know that people are suffering based on something as unchangeable and beautiful as skin tone kills me. If it were up to me, I would create a Pollyanna Wonder World where we all loved each other unconditionally. And, of course, I would put an end to all suffering and misery. So knowing that the reality is far from that and also, admittedly, not knowing which way to turn in order to improve things...I'm left grappling, too...

Top
#66289 - 05/20/06 10:23 AM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
DO1day Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 55
Loc: IL
I am so sick of bright women calling each other racist when we are really all talking about wanting a fair chance at survival. You don't know how many times I have been discriminated against for having blonde hair and blue eyes--people seem to think this somehow makes my life easier, and I can definitely tell you it does not in this field. How many times have I heard I dream of Jeanie comments when I pull my hair back in a ponytail? Or snickers that they know how I will get into medical school?! People are arses--sorry, but if given a chance, anyone could theoretically excuse why they are justified and another is not. I understand I will never know what it's like to be discriminated against for skin color, other things I can't change with contacts or hair color, but gosh darnit, at a base level I DO understand human nature and I am sick of it all. Statistics can be used to justify anything. Saying one is racist because one disagrees with the party line that illegals are welcome because they will work for less is a crock. My husband has lost multiple jobs to KNOWN illegals because they will work for 2 dollars less without benefits (8/hour instead of 10). We can hardly survive on 10 with both of us working and are allowed WIC on that income! This tells me the government recognizes we are poor, but refuses to insist on a living wage! The only way we can establish a living wage is mandate that ALL companies pay the darn living wage! It is not racist, it is survivalist. I want everyone to enjoy America and thrive in it. However, because of proximity, Mexican citizens have more likelihood of subverting the system. What about Russians who are stuck waiting? Do you know how dangerous the Russian business climate has become? Assasinations are a daily occurrence. They are waiting. Who is more important? We have to have a system of deciding this on a relativity scale to have any hope of fairness and we must insist that no one subvert the system. I can't help but feel that amnesty in any form would reward those who have subverted the system.

When I am at WIC, I have been warned via poster and verbally to guard my children's SSN diligently because they could be stolen by illegals to get aid. I know people this has happened to, and it is not like they were careless. This is a huge, huge problem, and sadly it seems as a society one side wants to emotionally blackmail the other as though they are morally bankrupt because they want to survive, too.

As far as foreign docs, in personal experience many don't learn the language adequately. It seems most learn enough to get by and then get irritated with others when they are not understood. As a transcriptionist, I guarantee I spend far more time transcribing ESL docs--they get more blanks, create longer sound files because they don't learn the dictation system, and cost more per line. This is the general rule among ESL docs. It is fact based on experience and not conjecture based on emotion. There have been countless times patients have misunderstood their ESL physicians and are calling nurses, stopping nurses for long explanations, even stopping me as a volunteer to explain what the doc just said. While foreign docs may truly be more inclined to serve indigent populations, imagine the extra cost in healthcare when their patients get into unneccesary emergencies because of failure to understand the doc. My SIL has worked hard to develop her English skills so that this is avoided, but many ESLs just refuse to.

What truly scares me is that what if by the time I get through med school I still can't make a living wage due to student loans?!!! Poverty sucks period, and from what I see, things are rough all over. We need to work together with fairness and respect extended liberally or we won't ever come to a just course of action. If you search your heart, you know that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. I am so Polyanna, too, and I think if bright minds work together, we can come to a reasonable solution, though you know darn well you can't please everyone all of the time. We will all take a hit if the cost of living goes up relative to everyone making a living wage, but it is worth it and I think it should be the focus.

Top
#66290 - 05/21/06 04:50 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
HealthBiz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 8
I think the American medical system is heavily geared in favor of foreign docs vis-a-vis med school debt burdens. With the exception of highly competitive specialties (and even this is not an absolute), foreign doctors arrive in the US with little or no student loan debt and after passing the USMLE, can obtain a residency and be on par professionally with most American docs sans the $200k medical school debt. Now, how is that fair?

Top
#66291 - 05/21/06 04:57 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
HealthBiz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 8
What about the genocide of the Afrikaners and other whites in South Africa? What about the genocide of white farmers in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), a land that was once the Breadbasket of Africa? Does anyone know the significance of the phrase, "Just wait until Mandela dies."

Top
#66292 - 05/21/06 05:04 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
HealthBiz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 8
I personally believe that if the US were TRULY an equal opportunity nation, medical schools would be open admission institutions for all college graduates. They should also offer part-time options to encourage more career changers and non-trads. Whether or not you obtain a job offer after graduation would be up to you, but I feel that if you want to study medicine, no adcom should have that much power over your life or future income potential. Who died and made them God? Also, how exactly is it democratic to have people spending thousands of dollars and traveling to interviews all over the country without the guarantee of admission? We Americans could learn a great deal from the French IMHO. I love the way they took to the streets when Chirac and Villepin wanted to tweak their employment laws.

Top
#66293 - 05/21/06 06:21 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
rydys Offline
Super Elite Member

Registered: 07/08/02
Posts: 561
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
I may be opening a real can of worms here, and I can't say that I've read through every post here, but here's my opinion.

I think that everyone should be admitted to colleges/med schools based on their merits alone--not on their country of origin, race or skin color. To me, this includes affirmative action.

I was sitting in a med school admitting office waiting for my interview, when someone came in and asked about requirements for "minority application". The requirement given was MCAT cumulative of 15 and GPA of 3.0. If I, a white female, had those stats, the school would have thrown my application away right away. However, simply bec. the applicant had a different skin color, they would consider admission for them. First of all, this is not considering each person based on her merits alone, this is discrimination just the same way as favoring a US citizen is. Second of all, it made me think--how do I know that the doctor of color who is treating me is really good enough, or if they just passed through bec. it boosted the "minority" numbers for the school?

Don't take this the wrong way, I know some excellent minority doctors, but in the long run this can compromise the quality of medical education and if the general public finds out, it will make people avoid minority doctors.

My father was the victim of "quotas" bec. he was not admitted to his first choice college bec. they had filled their quota of Jews. I was denied admission to my second choice college. Although I was not told why, I suspect it was bec. they already had enough whites. My SAT and high school scores were on the high end of competetive for that college, and on my interview they told me that they wanted me there.

Basically, I agree with the above that we need to get rid of quotas, stop evaluating people on meaningless things like place of birth and color of skin, and pay attention to things that count.

Top
#66294 - 05/21/06 06:33 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
francesca'smom Offline
Elite Member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 106
Loc: New York
I haven't read through all the posts either but the ones I did didn't represent my point of view so I wanted to add it. I don't believe in dividing the world up into countries and then fighting to keep people out of "your" country. Idealistic yes but hey, so isn't "treat others as you would like to be treated." This country has been the instrument of terrible conditions in other countries-through imperialism, invasions, wars to protect the financial interests of corporations, etc. Our history includes raping, murdering, and enslaving the native americans who were on this continent first. To now stand here and try to push other people out, and/or deny the incredible contributions they make is in my view morally reprehensible. I believe that individual countries and smaller untis and larger have their benefits in organizing human activities propogating our heritage, but our loyalties should be to the human race as a whole and how to best help all of us survive and thrive. As a doctor, I am always happy to see "illegal immigrants" benefiting from some of our medical care-although really only theaffluent and well-insured get the best. Still, it's good to see them and I have been proud to treat them.

Top
#66295 - 05/21/06 06:46 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
Doc201X Offline
Super Elite Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 2643
Loc: Hot a$$ Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by rydys:
I think that everyone should be admitted to colleges/med schools based on their merits alone--not on their country of origin, race or skin color. To me, this includes affirmative action. .
Starting a new thread to keep from hijacking this one!
wink
_________________________
Future MudPhud
http://Doc201X.blogspot.com/

Top
#66296 - 05/21/06 08:26 PM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
dnw826 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 220
Loc: NC
Quote:
Originally posted by HealthBiz:
What about the genocide of the Afrikaners and other whites in South Africa? What about the genocide of white farmers in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), a land that was once the Breadbasket of Africa? Does anyone know the significance of the phrase, "Just wait until Mandela dies."
What about the attempted systematic enslavement, rape, and killings of Scots and Irish? These things happen to people no matter the skin color. It's not a matter of whitey vs. the world. You are right. But I don't know the significance of the phrase. I am not too well versed in much African genocide outside Rwanda.

Top
#66297 - 05/22/06 03:14 AM Re: illegal immigration and impact on medical field
Sweet Offline
Elite Member

Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 384
We can keep listing atrocities that would fill yet endless pages... PBS ran a documentary last month about the Armenian genocide... what about that... and what about Cambodia... and what about Catholics massacring Protestants in France in 1572... and what about... and what about...

The bottom line is that atrocities of one or even many group(s)/individual(s) do not excuse anyone else's horrific deeds. So I am trying to figure out exactly what is the point of listing every horrible act one can think of or google?

The fact remains that unless one is a Native American (100%) then one is an immigrant in this country as of (at the very most) 400 years. And, compared to most of the illegal immigrants of today, the ancestors were far more "illegal". The "illegal immigrants" of today are not coming into the neighborhoods of the "natives" and running them out of their homes and off their lands at gunpoint. wink Additionally, 400 years is a relatively short period in history, and MOST people’s family trees do not go back even those 400 years on this continent, so most of us who are discussing this issue are more recent immigrants (maybe, 30, 50, 100 years of history of being continuously born and raised in the US in all the branches of the family tree).

I think we all agree that the system of dealing with immigration/immigrants is in need of serious reform, but being hostile towards immigrants, in my very humble opinion, should really not be a part of the solution.

Top
Page 14 of 16 < 1 2 ... 12 13 14 15 16 >