ALL men cheat??

Posted by: Doc201X

ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 04:48 PM

Goldie Hawn says that all men will eventually cheat. While I didn't believe this in my 20's, now that I'm weeks away from being 40, I agree 1000%. Do you?
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 04:58 PM

First of all, I think people's definition is cheating varies a LOT.

And, no....I do not agree. I KNOW there are statistics available with more credability than Goldie, lol. I also know they say that all men do not cheat. That being said, me lie too (lol) so who knows how much you can rely on those numbers either.
But, as I said, I disagree 1000% percent and I seriously doubt that I will be feeling different be it 23 yo or 43 yo but I got married at 17 and have been married since so maybe my point of view is atypical.

Allison
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 05:03 PM

Janus Report on Sexual Behavior (1993) found:

"More than one-third of men
and one-quarter of women
admit having had at least one extramarital sexual experience."

So this only includes married men and women who, at some point during their marriage, engaged in an intimate act with another person.

The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago published a survey in 1998. Their results were:

12 percent of women cheat
22 percent of men cheat

22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.
Younger people are more likely candidates; in fact, younger women are as likely as younger men to be unfaithful.
70 percent of married women and 54 percent of married men did not know of their spouses' extramarital activity.
5 percent of married men and 3 percent of married women reported having sex with someone other than their spouse in the year1997.
22 percent of men and 14 percent of women admitted to having sexual relations outside their marriage sometime in their past.
90 percent of Americans believe adultery is morally wrong.
50 percent of Americans say President Clinton's adultery makes his moral standard "about the same as the average married man,'' according to a Time-CNN poll.
61 percent of Americans thought adultery should not be a crime in the United states; 35 percent thought it should; 4 percent had no opinion.
17 percent of divorces in the United States are caused by infidelity.
Source: Associated Press


Various but certainly not 100 percent!

Allison
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
First of all, I think people's definition is cheating varies a LOT.
Here's my definition. Intimate Physical OR emotional contact in person, by email or phone with a person other than your SO.

Christie Brinkly, Vanessa Williams, Halle Berry, and Hillary Clinton. ALL of thier husbands cheated. I really don't think being married is "protection" from a cheating man.

Not only do I think that ALL men will eventually cheat but I think it's the woman's fault. ONLY a woman would have gone to Telluride, CO to stay at the SAME chateau as her lovers wife AND HIS family for winter vacation (ie Donald and Ivana Trump, and Marla Maples), then talked to Barbara Walters about it!

I think men are generally a LOT more loyal but are also weak when it comes to attractive/shapely women IMHO (except Monica Lewensky. I guess she had other "talents" :laughing: ). So a woman with a strong enough plan and the right ASSets, can seduce just about ANY man IMHO.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 05:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
"More than one-third of men
and one-quarter of women
admit having had at least one extramarital sexual experience."
Yeah, but do these data account for SES?? I saw a study published by a christian group which stated that the mor emoney a man makes the more likely he is to cheat, and this is perfectly logical to me since "chicken head skeezers" are ALWAYS looking for some man to take care of them.

Women physicians tend to have rather successful husbands and almost 50% of them marry other physicians. So I don't think it's reaching to say that because of our chosen vocations, we're much more likely to have a partner cheat.

Don't get me worng, I think women have a LOT of "power" in relationships but we use our powers more against each other then to keep men in check.
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 05:28 PM

I would not stick up for specific stats and I don't research 'em really either, that's why I posted several with variations. And I certianly would NOT trust any stats that come from any orgaization or whatever with any religious claim or backing.

I don't know what the real numbers are but I think to claim ALL men cheat is unfair and kind of crazy.

I have plenty of male friends who think women do most of the cheating.

I agree with you that being married is no protection, if anything I would believe most cheating occurs in the first three years of marriage and after about the tenth year, just my opinion, though.

interesting topic!

Allison
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 05:31 PM

Also, I hope you and Goldie are wrong or my husband will end up with out any balls, lol.

Allison
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
I don't know what the real numbers are but I think to claim ALL men cheat is unfair and kind of crazy.
It's definitely crazy but so is cheating in the first place!

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
I have plenty of male friends who think women do most of the cheating.
It does seem that these days, everyone cheats women included but before I castrated my DH for it, I'd be SURE I had no more use for them first. wink
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 06:24 PM

Quote:
before I castrated my DH for it, I'd be SURE I had no more use for them first.
LOL, yeah.

So, You really think every single man will cheat? Like, seriously, 100%?!?!

I just don't I mean, I would believe even 50 percent but no more!

Allison

We should go ask all of our SOs what they think lol
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
Quote:
before I castrated my DH for it, I'd be SURE I had no more use for them first.
LOL, yeah.

So, You really think every single man will cheat? Like, seriously, 100%?!?!

I just don't I mean, I would believe even 50 percent but no more!

Allison

We should go ask all of our SOs what they think lol
Yeah I think sooner or later, 100% of ALL men will cheat and it's almost impossible since they think about sex like what, 3 zillion times/day!! Truthfully, when Bill Cosby's and Jesse Jackson's affairs were revealed, I lost ALL faith in men being faithful. I mean, when you thought of the "Cosby Dad" did anyone ever REALLY think, "playa" too!

About asking our SO's, that won't help much. Men lie as much as they cheat! :rolleyes: wink :laughing:

And to those lurking and not posting in this thread, you KNOW you have SOMETHING to say about all this! :p
Posted by: SandyV

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 10:56 PM

Yes, I have something to say in this post. My father never cheated. My husband never cheated. Furthermore, both were virgins when they got married. My 2 brother-in laws (sisters' husbands) never cheated. Neither did my grandparents.

None of their ladies cheated, either. In fact, in my extended family, which is around 86 people, there have been only about 5 divorces (among some of my cousins).

Why? Because for most of these people their evangelical Christian faith was not just talk, but also action, and because cheating is not acting in a Christ-like manner.

I'm not saying temptation hasn't reared it's ugly head, but there is just a lot less tolerance for this in our faith. And their is no double standard, either. Men are expected to be sexually pure, just as women are.

It makes a big difference.
Posted by: artist

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/15/06 10:57 PM

More men cheat these days because women try are more competitve in thier marrages. They try and have more equal relationships and are more likely to try and be authorititive. The number one reason why men cheat is that many women really dont care and will take men back anyway. However, this is changing with women becoming more economically independent
Posted by: ahaley

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 02:06 AM

A few random thoughts with no cohesive thread.

All of the divorces in my circle of friends were due to the wives infidelity. In fact one group or 3 lady friends all had affairs at the same time and validated each other for doing so. All of these men were good husbands but maybe not the most exciting men on the block.

My husband tells me that every women he dated before me cheated on him and he wont be surprised if I do it at some point in the relationship. Despite my objections he further states that I cant get rid of him that easy he would absolutely take me back. This leaves me very unsettled but it is an interesting view on his part because I dont think I would be so forgiving.

My mentor is a male physician whose wife cheated on him with the dean of the medical school (his boss).

The only incidence of male cheating I can think of in my life was the surgeon who was caught in an unoccupied OR room with the scrub nurse. His wife is also a physician and they have reconcilled.
Posted by: Drey

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 04:55 AM

You don't have to be Christian not to cheat. You don't even have to believe in a god to take your marriage vows seriously. Not that I want to turn this into a religious debate, but I'm trying to point out that it depends more on the individual men than whatever background they come in. (Although, some cultures certainly do encourage cheating more than others. You'll find more cheating here than in Iran, for example, and there are cultures more permissible than us for cheating.)

My husband would be very offended if I thought that he was eventually going to cheat. I'm not quite as naive as it sounds, but I really don't believe my husband would EVER cheat on me. I know many men, and only a handful have cheated. Almost all of those who cheated, I could have predicted that they would based on their personalities. I think that to say all men cheat does a great discredit to the large number of loyal, wonderful, devoted men out there.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 07:01 AM

It's encouraging to hear of how many people think they know people who don't cheat. However, unless you have a GPS system on the genital parts, eyes, arms, legs, and yes mouths ( wink ) of those people, you know you can NEVER really KNOW FOR sure WHAT they're doing behind closed doors.

A lot of my position on cheating has to do with what I see going on around me, in the media, and from seeing my Dad, not from any particular expereince with cheating spouses/boyfriends. I hope that my spouse never cheats on me, but I think it would be foolish to say that my spouse would NEVER cheat on me. The ONLY person's behavior I can predict or dictate with ANY degree of certainty is my own.

Another thing I feel differently about now than I did in my 20's, is that I WOULD take my husband back if he cheated with a woman of course depending on the "nature" of the cheating. For example, I could probably never get over catching him in bed or him fathering a child outside of our marriage. I don't think you end a marriage or solid relationship because of a mistake and I see cheating as the same kind of "mistake" as I would say gambling away our retirement or becoming an alcoholic. A violation of trust is a violation of trust no matter WHAT was violated.
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 07:29 AM

Quote:
when you thought of the "Cosby Dad" did anyone ever REALLY think, "playa" too!

LOL

I agree with that BUT....

I don't think many women are foolish enough to have so little clue about what's going on around them to REALLY BELIEVE their men are not cheaters and just be wrong.
I mean, A woman knows her SO is having an affair even before he does, lol.
I again, and not naive and I think my husband will ALWAYS remain faithful. I don't need a GPS, we have love,respect, a family we are both devoted to, a hectic schedule and demaning careers and we need each other, not some skank or whatever. I'm sure people with all that do cheat but I believe many/most do not.My dad cheated, but my grandparents have remained faithful for more than 50 years and say that knowing it's true as yes, many people lie. Many people are not willing to cheat becasue it will hurt the one they love, it will make them look bad, it will destroy their family, many reasons more important that getting one off or whatever. Many not for all men, but the good one's don't cheat.
Maybe that sounds harsh but I would not say 100% of men cheat I would say 100% of ****ty, cruel, emotionally worthless men cheat.
It's not a mistake, that's inculting to the victim. It's absolutely a choice and if my SO CHOSE/DECIDED to have an affair he is chosing something knowing the damage it would do and me and my family and I WILL NEVER be married to someone who shows such disregard to everything I hold sacred.

ALlison

Allison
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 08:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
Many not for all men, but the good one's don't cheat.
Ok, I understand what you're trying to say. But saying the "good ones" don't cheat is like saying the "good ones" don't become alcholics, or the "good ones" never become unemployed. I mean LIFE happens even to the most emotionally stable, moral filled person.

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
I WILL NEVER be married to someone who shows such disregard to everything I hold sacred.
I truly hopwe that like so many women who said the EXACT same thing, you don't have to eventually "eat" those words! wink

No here comes the controversial part, I think if you have children and a "stable" home and life for them, ending a marriage over an affair is VERY, VERY selfish AND sinful because when you do that, your really ONLY thinking about YOURSELF: how hurt and embarassed you are, the shame the affair has put on the family, ect. So for example, I think Christie Brinkley SHOULD take her husband back because of the commitment he made to not just her but HER family. I don't know many men that would adopt the child of another man KNOWING that if things don't work out, he'll have to pay for that child too. In this case, I think the fact that he was willing to adopt her other son says more about his character than his affair with this young flusly and he went public with his apology something I have yet to see even Jesse Jaskson do. But lets be real here. How smart was it in the first place to hire that unskilled TEENAGER KNOWING that so many women these days lack anything that even resembles integrity?

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
100% of ****ty, cruel, emotionally worthless men cheat..
I personally don't feel that Pres Cliniton, Bill Cosby, or Peter Cook fall into this category. They are men who like so many other rich and powerful men, that got "caught up". Now Hugh Heffner and Donald Trump? REAL A$$es in my book!!! mad
Posted by: TLC

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
Many people are not willing to cheat becasue it will hurt the one they love, it will make them look bad, it will destroy their family, many reasons more important that getting one off or whatever.

Many not for all men, but the good one's don't cheat.
Allison


As the point that most give into an affair, especially men, I think the argument of caring for their wife and family too much to do so is a mute point, for they are already so overcome with the lust of the situation. Most people do not go out “looking to have an affair.” It really does just fall into that, it very often tends to be someone you know and work in close proximity with, not just some random stranger at a bar.

I think that ANY one of use, regardless of how “good,” “faithful,” or “committed” we are, can make that mistake given the right person, right factors, and right emotional state.

For faithful marriages we must always be on guard of our marriages. The best way to protect our marriages and our children is to do our best to prevent affairs. My husband and I have an understood rule that unless it is absolutely unavoidable that we are not alone with someone of the opposite sex. The less people there are, the more likely it is that intimate conversation will progress.

I think this is especially true in medicine, as working long exhausting hours, spending much time in close proximity of a group of colleagues, and the isolating factor that the situations physicians deal with no one else understands. How many other people stand by while patients die in front of them because nothing else can be done, and how many other careers hand you the stress of knowing your mistake may cost someone their life. Stress and intensity, are great contributing factors for affairs.

I know a wonderful, Godly male doctor who had an affair and destroyed his home life. It is arrogant to think that any of us are above “human-ness.”
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TLC:
My husband and I have an understood rule that unless it is absolutely unavoidable that we are not alone with someone of the opposite sex.
There's a very, very popular and megarich evangalist (I think it's Billy Graham) who has NEVER had an affiar and I'll tell you why I believe him. As some of you probably know he travels a LOT so when you gets to a new city,he has one of his assistants check his room to make sure no women laying naked in the bed, in the shower or elsewhere in the room (don't laugh, because I have a friend that played pro football and the stories he used to tell me of the things women did to get to him would make your head spin). No in my mind here's a man who 1) Knows how devious and coniving women can be and 2) is smart enough to know that ANYONE can have an affair.

So, I think it's BEST NOT to EVER play with temptation and keep the sexes seperate as much as humanly possible!
Posted by: varunner

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/16/06 11:01 PM

It seems ridiculous to say that all men cheat. I think that a lot of them have better charachter than that. I think that many people do "cheat" (depending on the definition of cheating of course) but that it is unrealistic and somewhat insulting to assume that all men would.
Posted by: baldpate27

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 07:54 AM

Pathdr2b -- what you've essentially admitted is that your cleaim that all men will eventually cheat is an unfalsifiable statement. An unfalsifiable statement is one which can neither be verified nor falsified against evidence of any kind. Your statement is, practically speaking, unfalsifiable because it is practically impossible place "a GPS system on the genital parts, eyes, arms, legs, and yes mouths ( ) of those people," such that "you know you can NEVER really KNOW FOR sure WHAT they're doing behind closed doors." Moreover, if even if we could do this, you would still find grounds for skeptical doubt as to the accuracy of our study or the device itself (a myriad of objections could still be raised.) Your statement is therefore unfalsifiable. In traditional philosophical logic circles, an unfalsifiable statement is a nonsensical statement. It is sheer shibboleth, meaningless, like claiming that "All troughs are plaids." Hence by logical analysis alone, your claim is at best false and at worst meaningless.
Posted by: TLC

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 09:24 AM

Perhaps I misread, Pathdr2b, are you stating that with certainity ALL men will have an affair at some point in their lives? Some men never marry, some have physical limitation, and some men claim that they have never cheated. Are you claiming all men will cheat, or that they are capable of cheating?
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 10:00 AM

This is discussion is mainly in fun. If you don't believe all men will eventually cheat then state why you think that. I think I've stated why I believe ALL men will eventually cheat.

Here's a couple ways you SHOULD be able to "pick up" on this fact that this is not ANY attempt to prove ANYTHING scientifically:

1) I can't possbily predict the behavior of anyone other than myself. But here's the interesting part. NEITHER CAN THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK YOU CAN.

2) The GPS system was meant as a joke. If you didn't "get it", take a laxative, relax, and come back to the thread in the morning. wink

3) I provide NO statistics and as a former Epidemiologist in one of my many former "lives", it's safe to assume that I'm aware of their importance in FORMAL forms of these types of debates.

4) I'm no lawyer, but defensiveness is usually a sign of a) guilt or b) familarity.

So, do you guys think ALL men will stay faithful or is it all married men, or all married christian men????

@TLC, the ONLY man I think will never cheat is one who is either a monk or is celebate. :yes:

@varunner - This "ain't no" politically correct debate. Maybe it is insulting but I don't know a man who thinks it is. It's just a statement that is truth to some and false to others.
Posted by: varunner

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 10:35 AM

LOL then I guess am one of the people that thinks it isn't true!

I am not particularly religious and most of my friends/family are not, but I know a lot of guys who would disagree with the idea that "all men cheat" and would say that they would not because they believe it's wrong.

Although we can't know what others will do, I think there's enough individuality among menfolk so that some will choose a version of right/wrong where cheating is "wrong" and will stick with it. Same as some women do.
Posted by: MDpl

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 11:13 AM

Know this one?
"If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty; but the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it."

It seems to me Path has produced a provocative statement and now dares everybody else to prove she's wrong. But really, shouldn't it be the other way round? I mean, if you say things like that, the burden of proof rests with you. I know plenty of men who I am very sure have never cheated as I am sure they have never stolen a car (yeah, I know it's different but I know it in just the same way, and do not need a GPS).

What I do agree with is that (while I think most don't) NO man is 100% sure never to cheat. Flesh is weak and so it is important to avoid temptations, like, why look at cake if you promised yourself not to eat it (I am currently struggling with my weight :rolleyes: )

Just my :twocents:
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 01:48 PM

Since I am separated I've been reading books about separation and divorce. And the topic of affairs is discussed in the context of bad marriages. I would hope in a good marriage that an affair usually would never happen. In bad marriages, the oppressed partner can seek validation through an affair. Also, the oppressing partner can have affairs as part of being abusive. So the affair isn't the main problem according to this, the marriage is.

On the other hand, I do work with someone whose husband had a week-long affair resulting in a pregnancy. After counseling and some rearranging of their life circumstances to stay married, this coworker now is a stepmother to the resulting child and they are raising it along with their own.
Posted by: Allison

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 02:41 PM

Quote:
The GPS system was meant as a joke. If you didn't "get it", take a laxative, relax, and come back to the thread in the morning.
You just about won me over with that one, Path!
LOL
Posted by: alternativeMD

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/17/06 03:32 PM

Wow, this is such a heated topic!

Path, There is a difference between "all men will cheat" vs "all men have the capacity/potential to cheat."

Which one do you mean?

By the way, even monks and those who are very religious have "cheated."

Billy Graham once said in the interview that early on in his career, he and his colleagues decided that since money and women are the two things that bring down evangelical churches, he and his colleagues were to never be alone in a room with a woman who is not their wife, and they were to have accountability in money.

I think not just men, but all women have the capacity/potential to cheat, if they were deeply unhappy with the situation they are in.

By the way, do you ladies count fantasizing about other women a form of cheating? A therapist that my friend went to once said that ALL MEN FANTASIZE about having sex with other women. What do you lady think about that? And, apparently, many women are fantasizing about other men in order to maintain a healthy sex life with their spouse.

What is marriage?
Posted by: Drey

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 05:44 AM

Quote:
I can't possbily predict the behavior of anyone other than myself.
well, then you can't predict that men WILL cheat either.

I think you misunderstand our argument. We are not trying to say that "all christian men don't cheat" or "all religious men don't cheat." To do so would be to set up an equally ridiculous generalization.

However, if I took any man out there, and his wife, his sister, his mother and his best friend all said he would never cheat, I would be pretty assured that he would not. The people that know a man's character the best are best able to predict whether he would cheat, which is why I take offense at people assuming that I am naive if I say my husband does not cheat, and will not cheat.

I wonder if the people who fall on the all men cheat side of the argument have all had bad experiences with men who did?
Posted by: residentmom

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 08:24 AM

I have been following along for a while.

I think is is doing a disservice to men to say they ALL cheat. Isn't there some saying about how absolutes (ie ALL, NONE, etc) are generally not true? If we truly believed that all men cheat, why would anyone ever marry? Marriage (a commitment to one person, forever) would have no meaning in that world context. I would be pretty offended if some man said that ALL women cheat, as I feel quite certain that I will not/ could not. I imagine many people would feel the same way. If someone said that ALL women steal, I would be offended in the same way, in that I know that I would not do that either.
Posted by: sahmd

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 09:54 AM

Quote:
Goldie Hawn says that all men will eventually cheat.
How about this: all men in Goldie Hawn's circle of friends will eventually cheat. That is probably closer to being true. Would you ever marry (or commit to) a Hollywood star, expecting him to be faithful forever? :rotfl:
Posted by: alternativeMD

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sahmd:
[QUOTE] Would you ever marry (or commit to) a Hollywood star, expecting him to be faithful forever? :rotfl:
Yea, if his name is Paul Newman. Handsome, and faithful. What a guy!

I think sometimes circumstance just happens to you in life. Is Joann Woodward necessarily the most amazing woman to account for Paul's faithfulness? Probably not. So how did she end up with a life-long, faithful husband? Maybe it's just fate.

The buddhism teaching is that life is suffering, and nothing is permanent. If you let go the desire for possessing something permanent, you will acheive peace. But, if you insist on possessing another person to create an ideal of "forever," you are going to suffer. Although I am not a buddhist, there is something about this sentiment that resonates with me.

Philosophy aside, I feel like we women need to look out for each others. I will never, ever, have an affair with a married man, out of respect for his wife and even more so, his innocent children--especially his daughters. And that, I am sure of, and will carry to the grave with me. This is not a high moral decision that I've made, but it's a visceral and emotional connection that I feel with other women who are wives and daughters.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by
Drey:
I wonder if the people who fall on the all men cheat side of the argument have all had bad experiences with men who did?
If I choose not to spend a fortune on a Britax car seat, it doesn't mean I can't afford one, it simply means I choose to find a quality car seat at a better price.

I believe men are hard wired to "spread their seed" which I think makes staying faithful VERY hard.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 08:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by alternativeMD:
The buddhism teaching is that life is suffering, and nothing is permanent. If you let go the desire for possessing something permanent, you will acheive peace. But, if you insist on possessing another person to create an ideal of "forever," you are going to suffer. Although I am not a buddhist, there is something about this sentiment that resonates with me.

Philosophy aside, I feel like we women need to look out for each others. I will never, ever, have an affair with a married man, out of respect for his wife and even more so, his innocent children--especially his daughters. And that, I am sure of, and will carry to the grave with me. This is not a high moral decision that I've made, but it's a visceral and emotional connection that I feel with other women who are wives and daughters.
I have a degree in Eastern philosophy and can relate very well to buddhist teachings. That's a GREAT point! And you've gott love a women who knows that as women we are better off being loyal to each other than disloyal.
Posted by: anonymous30

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/18/06 08:25 PM

that's all well and good until you meet a man - get deeply involved with him and one day his wife shows up on your doorstep with four children in tow. sometimes you get dragged into affairs without even knowing, believe me I know. And no matter what your intentions are you still feel like scum eventho the last thing you wanted was to be a 'home wrecker'. Be careful - there are many men out there leading duplicitous lives. I've been the "other woman" and never knew it . . . don't go judging other women who get involved with a married man as gold-digging skeezes, many are not gold-digging and the last thing they want is someone else's left-overs! mad
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/19/06 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by anonymous30:
I've been the "other woman" and never knew it . . . don't go judging other women who get involved with a married man as gold-digging skeezes, many are not gold-digging and the last thing they want is someone else's left-overs! mad
If you were the other women and didn't know it, then OBVIOUSLY were NOT referring to you :rolleyes:
Posted by: baldpate27

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/24/06 07:31 AM

In logic, the problem with universal statements (beginning with "any," "all," or "every") is that they are very easily disproven. It only takes one counterexample to make them false.

All men cheat
My father does not cheat
Hence, all men do not cheat

Its not that they're usually false (though may be through sheer probability they are), but they are very vulnerable statements. A logician or philosopher would refrain from making them whenever possible because their credibility is often dubious.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/24/06 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by baldpate27:
In logic, the problem with universal statements (beginning with "any," "all," or "every") is that they are very easily disproven. It only takes one counterexample to make them false.

All men cheat
My father does not cheat
Hence, all men do not cheat

Its not that they're usually false (though may be through sheer probability they are), but they are very vulnerable statements. A logician or philosopher would refrain from making them whenever possible because their credibility is often dubious.
Logic is one thing, life is another. I imagine that if "life" followed logic, many of life "problems" would be nonexistant.

However, I'll have to definitely keep those statments of logic in mind when I retake the MCAT. wink
Posted by: fourthyear

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 08/24/06 12:24 PM

My man does not cheat and will never.

I have known women whose husbands do cheat - they usually do have some clue into the situation when he becomes distant, less communicative - they know something's wrong but he won't admit it or talk about it.

I think the key to having a good marriage where the man does not cheat is
1. Choose a man with a good history - solid values, didn't cheat in the past and disapproves of any friends he knows who cheat on serious relationships (this doesn't mean he can't keep them as friends, but just that he expresses to you that he does not agree with his behavior)
2. Have great trust and day-to-day communication - know what is going on in each others lives - i'm amazed at how many people can live in the same house and not be close in this way. Many affairs start because partners have grown apart and one spouse starts feeling they have more in common with someone outside their marriage than their spouse. I may be gone from home 80+ hours a week, but I know my husband and I are still each other's best friends.
3. Have a good healthy sexual relationship with him yourself...and along those lines, no, I don't think fantasizing is cheating, I think it can be part of a healthy relationship with your spouse.
Posted by: baldpate27

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/01/06 07:04 AM

It is absolutely true that logic is one thing, while life is another. But if you are really interested in truths about life rather than logic, it should be abundantly clear by now that life provides ample evidence that your statement is false (look at all the responses on this thread!)
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/01/06 07:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by baldpate27:
It is absolutely true that logic is one thing, while life is another. But if you are really interested in truths about life rather than logic, it should be abundantly clear by now that life provides ample evidence that your statement is false (look at all the responses on this thread!)
As a tried and true scientist, there is NO such think as NEVER!!!! And almost everyone I've ever known to say NEVER to anything from flunking a class in college to their "man" having an affair went from NEVER to NOW!!! :rolleyes: The word NEVER really only works AFTER you're dead because as long as you're alive, never ALWAYS has the possiblility of becoming EVER!!!

So what about the responses in this thread? Do you remember Clinton saying on natinal TV "I've have NEVER had sexual relations with that woman"??? The people in this thread are going by what their SO's TELL them and as most adults know, people LIE!!! So unless they have come up with a way to remove their partners "organs" and carry them with them when the dude leaves, all they know is what HE said. And even then, if he's anything like my DH, there are other body parts that become equally as useful! wink

This converstaion is so much like those I hear from parents "My little Johnny would NEVER do that". And all I can say to that is that sounds exactly like what one of the parents of the Columbine shooters said too!
:rolleyes:

One trusim in life, never say naver!
Posted by: baldpate27

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/01/06 08:47 AM

I think you are confused about who said what in the forum. To my knowledge, I have not used the word "never," yet you quote me as if you are responding to me?
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/01/06 01:54 PM

I think we would all choose to get straight A's if could, perhaps especially those of us in medicine, and hope that we have storybook marriage. But as I've found, marriage can result in very unfortunate power imbalance with a dominant and submissive partner. and if this would happen, it can create a setting for an affair to happen - This didn't happen to us, but as I've talked about separation and divorce with friends, I've learned more and more about how this is out there.
Posted by: mrssd

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 08:47 AM

I haven't read this entire post, mainly because some of the posts were getting a little too ridiculous in both their banter and their logic.
First, wow, wouldn't most men be terribly disappointed in how little credit we give them. This thread would probably be very insulting to most of the men I know, some posts have ascribed the same instincts to a man that you would a creature on National Geographic. Lets give them a little more credit than that…

But in response to the general topic I have to say that I think it would be very sad to go through your life thinking that a person you have committed yourself to is completely untrustworthy. It is depressing, cynical and generally very sad. It is really about trust and faith. I trust my husband and I have faith in him and my marriage. We work on our communication and building our relationship everyday and I believe that those actions along with our respect and love for each other and our soon to be born child will keep us together and faithful.
I think that if you live your life worrying that he will cheat on you, or that he will break your heart you are going to end up saying why bother and you will miss all of those great moments and connections with another person. If you can't have faith in someone you might as well dig a hole and place yourself in it--I can guarantee that no one will cheat on you in that circumstance but it doesn’t sound like much of a life to me.
Posted by: baldpate27

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 09:07 AM

Pathdr2b, I am curious: Why, if you have such a low opinion of men, do you worry about what they think of you? I ask this because you indicated in another forum that you worry about men not taking women seriously. But if you have such a low opinion of men, why should you care if they take you seriously? If I felt that men had such little integrity I would not bother with their opinions. I ask because it seems like a very unhealthy (perhaps a better word is "conflicted") combination: bitterness about male infidelity combined with a need for male acceptance.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mrssd:
I think that if you live your life worrying that he will cheat on you, or that he will break your heart you are going to end up saying why bother and you will miss all of those great moments and connections with another person. If you can't have faith in someone you might as well dig a hole and place yourself in it--I can guarantee that no one will cheat on you in that circumstance but it doesn’t sound like much of a life to me.
These types of statements is what makes communicating women such a pathetic experience in futility.

This thread started off pretty light hearted but has somehow morphed into a quasi attack on the personal views you don't share.

First, I can't recall any poster stating that they "worry" about anything especially whether or not their men cheat/will cheat/have cheated, So staying "true to how it usually goes to communitcate with women fashion" you not only jumped to conclusions, you put words into the mouths of other folks.

Having faith and being naive are 2 totally different things. And what do you mean by that anyw, "I have faith that my husband won't cheat"? Or is "faith" a mask for your own insecurities that he won't cheat? Or maybe you're like so many owmen who put their complete "faith" in men only to end up dumped for a younger/finer version of yourself and divorced in the end ?? THAT would be a pretty miserable way to live IMHO, sticking your head in the sand on the "faith" that things won't happen to you. And it's probably the reason why when things do go south (with or without faith) women are left in sad shape after divorce.

Here's a news flash. The BIG difference between a woman who moves on from infidelity, alcoholism, gambling ect in a marraige to emerge on the other side with her marriage in tact, or relationship, or perhaps hse's better off beign alone yet she has her sanity too is that she first had faith in her GOD, then HERSELF that she was strong enough to weather ANY storm. Faith in man sounds almost sacreligious to me.
Posted by: mrssd

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 03:21 PM

path-I have to say that you are one of the most contradictory, hypocritical posters on this site. It drives me insane the way that you purport to be embarrassed by women because of this reason or that reason when in fact your behavior is beyond embarrassing in my opinion. I don't believe I made any assumptions as to what you were saying, I was sharing my opinion--if you don't want it then stop starting so many dang threads in the debate section. I just don't see why you take every opportunity to lash out at the people on this board when you ask for their opinions in the first place--perhaps it is narcissism that drives you to always believe people are addressing you or maybe you are just bored but I am frankly quite tired of it. For goodness sakes, you found a way to argue about car seats!! You should put your energy into something more useful.
My point in my previous post, although I am sure most got it, was that I chose not to think in such a negative and distrustful way and I encourage other women to do the same. Trust is imperative in our lives and in our profession. Yes, I have faith in my husband; I would not call myself naive any more than I would call you bitter.
I am sure that because of your deep seeded emotional and/or social issues you will see it fit to respond to this in some derogatory way but I can promise you that I won't be engaging you again. I hope that other posters will follow suit because your antagonistic banter is really bringing down this site.
(and yes, I am quite embarrassed of myself that I chose to post this reply but I am absolutely fed up with negative tones and put downs on a site that is supposed to be uplifting and empowering)
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mrssd:
path-I have to say that you are one of the most contradictory, hypocritical posters on this site. It drives me insane the way that you purport to be embarrassed by women because of this reason or that reason when in fact your behavior is beyond embarrassing in my opinion. I don't believe I made any assumptions as to what you were saying, I was sharing my opinion--if you don't want it then stop starting so many dang threads in the debate section. I just don't see why you take every opportunity to lash out at the people on this board when you ask for their opinions in the first place--perhaps it is narcissism that drives you to always believe people are addressing you or maybe you are just bored but I am frankly quite tired of it. For goodness sakes, you found a way to argue about car seats!! You should put your energy into something more useful.
My point in my previous post, although I am sure most got it, was that I chose not to think in such a negative and distrustful way and I encourage other women to do the same. Trust is imperative in our lives and in our profession. Yes, I have faith in my husband; I would not call myself naive any more than I would call you bitter.
I am sure that because of your deep seeded emotional and/or social issues you will see it fit to respond to this in some derogatory way but I can promise you that I won't be engaging you again. I hope that other posters will follow suit because your antagonistic banter is really bringing down this site.
(and yes, I am quite embarrassed of myself that I chose to post this reply but I am absolutely fed up with negative tones and put downs on a site that is supposed to be uplifting and empowering)
Blah,blah,blah. You've been a member of this site for what, like a hot minute, and you have all this to say? I'll take the high road and address you by PM.

FYI, you had the CHOICE to address me by PM to prevent being "embarrassed" and "bringing the site down" but choose otherwise. How typical! :rolleyes:
Posted by: residentmom

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 09:20 PM

I've been a member for 6 months longer than you, Path, so I hope you will take a minute and listen-- I have never known you to be so negative and (sorry frown ) rude to other posters. I hope that things are going well in your life, and maybe stress is getting to you this month. :guilty:

I also hope that we can take this discussion down a notch and ALL try to avoid personal attacks and character criticisms. I realize debate can be heated, but let's try to keep it civil, ladies! :crossfingers:
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/02/06 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by residentmom:
I've been a member for 6 months longer than you, Path, so I hope you will take a minute and listen-- I have never known you to be so negative and (sorry frown ) rude to other posters. I hope that things are going well in your life, and maybe stress is getting to you this month. :guilty:

I also hope that we can take this discussion down a notch and ALL try to avoid personal attacks and character criticisms. I realize debate can be heated, but let's try to keep it civil, ladies! :crossfingers:
Actually, I have been a member since 2002 with another username. I think I'm member number 65 or something like that.

I don't agree that I've been rude to other poster UNLESS they were first rude to me. Thing's in my life are actually quite great contrary to popular belief( healthy family, career on track, new car, new place, ance cleared up, ect, ect).

What is going on is that I'm am just so sick of seeing women complain about life as if they have NO part in how things have played out. Then, women who have no intention of taking 3 years after having a baby, get "judged" by Mom who decided to get 4 advanced degress then stay at home. And I guess I see a LOT being involved heavily in Academia. Not to mention the women I see stabbing each other in the back. I'm also sick of "pussy footing" around "sensitive" issues. A woman's MANY "sensitivites" are the bane of her existance! Why can't we just tell it like it is like the guys do, then move on without the pesonal attacks? I mean, someone brought up the 6 month old car seats debate for goodness sakes? Please, move on sista, move on! I guess I'm just so disappointed with women in general right now!!! frown
Posted by: medstudent31

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/05/06 07:00 PM

I think we should value all viewpoints, regardless of what race you are, how rich you are, how far along in school/doctorhood you are, and how long you have been a member of this forum. A day-old member still brings a lifetime of experience to this message board. To me, this is the beauty of MomMD - everyone is welcome!
Posted by: CaliMD

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/05/06 07:34 PM

...and Medstudent31, you have written a truly beautiful post! You have articulated so well as to why MomMD is so great!
Posted by: fourthyear

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/10/06 11:36 AM

Distrusting of men, diappointed in women - just pissed off at the world, huh?
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/10/06 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fourthyear:
Distrusting of men, diappointed in women - just pissed off at the world, huh?
I think you have that wrong, it's actually distrusting AND disappointed of women. Remember, I BLAME women for the fact that men cheat, at least in those cases where the person the man is cheating with is a woman. wink

But soooo luckly for me , women don't make up my world and never will! :no:
Posted by: residentmom

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/10/06 08:48 PM

Quote:
But soooo luckly for me , women don't make up my world and never will!
MomMD Women In Medicine Forums. :rolleyes:
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/17/06 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by residentmom:
Quote:
But soooo luckly for me , women don't make up my world and never will!
MomMD [b]Women
In Medicine Forums. :rolleyes: [/b]
And lucky for me, I've established some of the most meaningful relationships with women from Mommd.
:p
Posted by: dnw826

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/28/06 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pathdr2b:
Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
[b] Many not for all men, but the good one's don't cheat.
Ok, I understand what you're trying to say. But saying the "good ones" don't cheat is like saying the "good ones" don't become alcholics, or the "good ones" never become unemployed. I mean LIFE happens even to the most emotionally stable, moral filled person.

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
I WILL NEVER be married to someone who shows such disregard to everything I hold sacred.
I truly hopwe that like so many women who said the EXACT same thing, you don't have to eventually "eat" those words! wink

No here comes the controversial part, I think if you have children and a "stable" home and life for them, ending a marriage over an affair is VERY, VERY selfish AND sinful because when you do that, your really ONLY thinking about YOURSELF: how hurt and embarassed you are, the shame the affair has put on the family, ect. So for example, I think Christie Brinkley SHOULD take her husband back because of the commitment he made to not just her but HER family. I don't know many men that would adopt the child of another man KNOWING that if things don't work out, he'll have to pay for that child too. In this case, I think the fact that he was willing to adopt her other son says more about his character than his affair with this young flusly and he went public with his apology something I have yet to see even Jesse Jaskson do. But lets be real here. How smart was it in the first place to hire that unskilled TEENAGER KNOWING that so many women these days lack anything that even resembles integrity?

Quote:
Originally posted by Allison:
100% of ****ty, cruel, emotionally worthless men cheat..
I personally don't feel that Pres Cliniton, Bill Cosby, or Peter Cook fall into this category. They are men who like so many other rich and powerful men, that got "caught up". Now Hugh Heffner and Donald Trump? REAL A$$es in my book!!! mad [/b]
I completely disagree. I see infidelity as 100% non-negotiable. I would never ever ever take a man back for it. He would have to run for the hills. But I have a lot of experience being cheated on, and a lot of self worth issues.

When I see cheating, I see someone who isn't grown up enough to make the right decision concerning their SO's emotions and who thinks throwing someone down is worth devastating the person they "love". It is also incredibly dangerous with the risks of disease, STD's and HIV. I would never forgive putting me at risk for something potentially fatal or emtoionally horrible. I have friends who have had chlamydia due to cheating partners, and all I can say is it is so much more than just loyalty.

When you cheat, it affects your trust in your partner. You will live with that for the rest of your life. They will never truly trust you again. Is that really the ideal relationship you would want your children to be modeled with? Yes, honey, daddy thought doing his secretary while mommy was home taking care of the kids was a good idea, and so should you. :rolleyes:

I would hope that both parents would make responsible choices, being parents, and model the values they want their kids to value.

If you want to forgive your SO for cheating, by all means, that is your business. But I would never tell anyone they are sinning by getting out of a relationship the other person disvalued long before.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/28/06 07:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dnw826:
I would hope that both parents would make responsible choices, being parents, and model the values they want their kids to value.
So are you saying that if a child has a parent(s) that has cheated or is cheating, that child can't grow up to make better choices? I'd imagine if that were truly the case, the world would have long ago dissolved into a cess pool of immoral bastrads LONG ago. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally posted by dnw826:
If you want to forgive your SO for cheating, by all means, that is your business. But I would never tell anyone they are sinning by getting out of a relationship the other person disvalued long before.
I didn't outline the conditions of my forgiving my spouse, so I think it's quite presumptous for you to presume to know what those conditions would be. Or as Hiliary Clinton would say, you shouldn't assume I'm a "Tammy Wynette" kinda gal. wink Common sense would dictate a reaction based on the circumstances of the cheating. For example, did he cheat after I gained 70 pounds? If so, then I would certainly assume so responsibility for HIS behavior. (And yes, I feel that when man or woman feels they must look outside the marriage for sex, BOTH parties contributed to that behavior). Or, did he cheat because after I became an MD, I inadvertantly striped him of his manhood? Or did he cheat because his father cheated and he thinks it's normal? Maybe he cheated when I got pregnant which accordig to the stats, is the time a man is most likely to cheat?

About sinning, perhaps what a woman who has been cheated on should do is ask their child(ren) if they want to live away form daddy without going into the details. I doubt in most cases they would say yes. For some people, life is about making choices that are not best for YOU but best for YOUR family. Where I come from we call that Selflessness.

Quote:
Originally posted by dnw826:
When you cheat, it affects your trust in your partner. You will live with that for the rest of your life. They will never truly trust you again. Is that really the ideal relationship you would want your children to be modeled with? Yes, honey, daddy thought doing his secretary while mommy was home taking care of the kids was a good idea, and so should you. :rolleyes:
As a christian, I am teaching my children ALL christain values, including forgiveness. Picking and choosing which christian values I want to live my life by and when as an example for christian living, is just plain blastphemous

In divorce unless you are independantly wealthy, the woman is often left in a much worse financial situation than she was in the marriage. I don't want to say to my kids one day "Sorry honey, we have to eat welfare cheese sandwiches everyday because I wasn't able to be forgive Daddy for thinking about his secretary".

A cheating parent or being poor. Which do you REALLY think will have the most adverse affect on a childs life?
Posted by: Baby Einstein

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 08:49 AM

I hope I never have to make that decision, but I have a lot of respect for women who choose to stay with a husband who has cheated, especially if this is publicly known. I think it takes a lot of courage and strength. That's one of the reasons why I admire Hillary so much, standing by her man no matter what.

Now if this is a recurring situation, it's different. It becomes abusive and a power issue in those cases. But forgiving a man for making a mistake once is something I respect, especially if children are involved.
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 10:23 AM

Sometimes people do things publicly for the 'important' appearance sake - but it is a very different story as to the dynamic that is taking place privately between them. I think the issue is getting to the bottom of why the affair took place - can that problem in the marriage be improved so that intimacy between the couple can be restored. Can the power issues that are likely involved be equalized, or not? Children are happiest if the marriage is between 2 happy and equal people.

Sometimes there can be several levels to the power/emotional interaction. For example, the case above of gaining 70lbs. Did you gain 70lbs because your husband has been rejecting you so you've been eating for comfort? If so then his having an affair on top of that is the one-two punch, but unless you examine things very closely for the underlying messages and dynamics, you will not realize it and perhaps blame yourself as in your example. It can take years to figure things out.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sisriver:
Children are happiest if the marriage is between 2 happy and equal people.
Personally I think "happiness" is overrated in todays' society. Anyone who is happy all the time is either on crack or deluding themselves. Being reasonably happy MOST of the time seems more realistic to me. Having said that, I often wonder what makes kids in general "happy"? Of
course it varies from family to family but I believe that with one divorce under my belt, a child would rather have a reasonbly "happy" family life, than a supposedly "happy" all the time life with a financially strapped a single parent. The fact is that I don't know too many single Moms (and there are more than a few in my family) that are what I'd call "happy" mainly because of the financial aspect of raising a kid(s) by yourself. I'm sure there are exceptions I just don't know any.

Quote:
Originally posted by sisriver:
For example, the case above of gaining 70lbs. Did you gain 70lbs because your husband has been rejecting you so you've been eating for comfort? If so then his having an affair on top of that is the one-two punch, but unless you examine things very closely for the underlying messages and dynamics, you will not realize it and perhaps blame yourself as in your example.
Like I said earlier ,when a spouse has an affair, BOTH partners have to take responsibility (not blame) for it. Now that I'm at an age where I have to watch what I eat, gaing weight for "emotional" reasons shows a lackof will power, IMHO. Gaining weight due to some underlying medical condition is another story. It seems to me that if your spouse is messing around, the absolute LAST ting I'd do is "let myself go" by gaining a lot of weight. Call me vain, but as a 40 year old woman I have to maintain my ability to do what the men do, and pull a Demi Moore/Ashton Kutcher in case the need arises! wink

Quote:
Originally posted by sisriver:
It can take years to figure things out.
All the more reason women shouldn't be too quick to throw in the towel in a marriage if the man has cheated. I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that those who choose to stay at home and not work are FAR less likely to walk out. :scratchchin:
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 12:43 PM

Do these things exist in the marriage:

partnership, mutuality, goodwill, intimacy, validation

If they do, then work on it. Maybe there is just some growing up to do.
But if there is covert manipulation and control going on, and negation of the partner's experience, then the marriage may need to be seriously examined.
Hopefully the single mothers in your family have validation now, in spite of the significant financial difficulties.
I realize talking about childrens happiness is a very complex issue. But I think we have to get some of these things out in the open, so we can model for our children and offer advice to them so they don't fall into a less than happy marriage.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sisriver:
Do these things exist in the marriage:
partnership, mutuality, goodwill, intimacy, validation
This is turning out to be a REAL good discussion! :goodvibes:

I think you have to bring your own "sense" of partnership (can you compromise when the chips are down?), mutuality, goodwill (are you kind?), intimacy (are you happy with your own self/body image), validation (do you live by your own stadards or those of others/society) to a marriage rather than expecting that these traits to miraculously appear out of no where once you do marry. And I also think these things exist MOST of the time in marriage but certain not ALL the time. Just like I'm not ALWAYS happy with my daughter's behavior but satisfied MOST of the time. Just as I don't love school ALL the time but MOST of the time.

I think expecting marriage to ALWAYS be an excercise in "absolutes" is a REAL mistake and one of the many recipes for an unhappy marriage/divorce.
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 01:21 PM

There are charmers out there, men and women, who put on a good show for appearing kind, capable, doing-good - but underneath there is manipulation is going on. It is hard to dissect that while you are offering mutuality, they are seeking power, as it is disguised in helpfulness, knowing-better, joking and other ways. Those of us with low-self esteem are targets for these types. Ask the single women in your family if this is what they went up against.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sisriver:
There are charmers out there, men and women, who put on a good show for appearing kind, capable, doing-good - but underneath there is manipulation is going on. It is hard to dissect that while you are offering mutuality, they are seeking power, as it is disguised in helpfulness, knowing-better, joking and other ways. Those of us with low-self esteem are targets for these types. Ask the single women in your family if this is what they went up against.
I certainly think there are some manipulative people in the world and would certainly qualify my first husband as one for sure. But my issue wasn't that I lacked self esteem, I thought I could "fix it". Unlike Oprah, I don't think a woman who puts up with behavior that isn't to her liking does so because she thinks she deserves to be mistreated, but more because women want to work it out, fix it, ect ect. Women ARE the emotional backbone of families, IMHO.

Now, I do have to pull on "Oprah" and state that from my dating experiences I can't recall ONE instance where I didn't realize something wasn't quite right before I REALIZED something wasn't quite right. A woman's intuition is her GREATEST gift but is often ignored. A manipulative person didn't just show up AFTER marriage, a fact I have come to realize ONLY with age and maturity. There were signs (which I choose to ignore) there LONG before the "I Do's" were exchanged and I'd imagine this is the case for most people.

See, I'm all about calling a man a dog, jerk, "mofo", ect, if that's what he is, but I'm more about taking repsonsibility for and playing a DIRECT role in my own happiness.
Posted by: sisriver

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 02:34 PM

Some of these manipulator types I'm talking about don't lay it on until after the emotional commitment is made, so yes, sometimes after engagement or marriage or living together or whenever he senses the emotional buy-in from the partner. This means it can be months or years before the real abuse is established. And then the same thing during the relationship - it can be days/weeks/or months between abusive interactions so it's really difficult to figure out, because he seems so loving in between times. I am speaking from my own perspective, of course, as one who is separated from my husband after finally becoming aware of what was going on. And it is hard, because neighbors, family, friends still see him the way I used to - as a nice guy - but this is just the illusion. And I have several friends now who have faced similar relationships - men who seemed very tender and loving until after marriage when things changed. The hardest thing is that they can make you doubt yourself, because they deny the abuse and invalidate your feelings so you begin to doubt your own intuition. If you talk to Oprah tell her it's good for a show.
Posted by: Sweet

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 09:10 PM

These are complex issues... some people, men and women, are very good actors and can present a very deceitful facade... fooling even the most astute partner for a long time. Some women, and men too, do believe that they do not deserve any better (as mentioned in conjunction with Oprah), until they finally grow, gain strength and a sense of emotional self-worth and decide that it is *not* worth sacrificing a life... even if it is for the purported happiness of the kid(s). There are myriad other reasons why people end up in lousy situations... emotional/physical trauma, circumstances, etc. It is very Ayn Rand (Who's John Galt? laugh ) to say that one has to have the willpower to stand up to the storms of life, i.e. not gain weight, etc. etc., but it sounds awfully "absolute" to me... and I think we all agree that there are no absolutes. wink

Re Happiness: This is where I disagree strongly - I think in this society happiness is often turned into a mockery. Upon closer examination, not only is it *not* overrated... quite the opposite... it is devalued, commercialized and falsely idolized. Happiness is packaged as a big house or expensive car, it is presented as a piece of shiny rock set in a scrap of shiny metal, it can be found in an overpriced Coach bag, it is painted as the idyllic family picnic, it is sold as magic little pills... I look around myself, I look within myself and even while I strain to keep myself from falling prey to this cheap mockery, I cannot help but internalize some of these images of happiness that seem to be ubiquitously pushed down our throats (look at advertising). So... no... true happiness is not overrated, it is often overlooked by most.

Do all men cheat? Do we all like chocolate ice cream? Many do - some emotionally, some physically, some both ways. Is it possible to forgive a man who has cheated... sure, but in my humble opinion it is not obligatory. Some women may never be happy again after the trust has been broken in a relationship... and I don't mean the commercial "happy" - with the financial stability, the big house filled with the 2 adults + the 2.3 kids + the 1.8 dogs, the nice cars in the garage, and the time-shares in Hawaii and Vail. Should they stay in this marriage because they want the kids to have the stability of the above (house, car, vacations, etc.)? In my humble opinion... under *no* circumstances. Children can intuit things much more quickly and astutely than we may realize... they can smell unhappiness (true unhappiness) like fresh vomit. eek The emotional misery of the unhappy parents then becomes the inheritance of their children - I do not say this lightly, but with careful thought, after much observation and thorough analysis... within the limitations of my own experiences, surroundings, exposures, etc., of course.

It is not selfish to recognize that your own life (as the child of your own mother) has as much value as your child's. I believe in sacrifice for one's children - take a bullet, give a kidney, lung, liver... this is real, tangible, with appreciable positive results (ask me about the 7 months I starved on a severely limited 11-item diet, nursing my hyper-allergic child... "willpower" does not begin to describe this), but resigning to a lifetime of emotional misery is not good for the moms or the kids. Some couples can rise from the ashes of infidelity and build a happy and strong relationship again, others cannot... I try not to make absolute judgements regarding either... smile
Posted by: mommd2b

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sweet:


It is not selfish to recognize that your own life (as the child of your own mother) has as much value as your child's. I believe in sacrifice for one's children - take a bullet, give a kidney, lung, liver... this is real, tangible, with appreciable positive results (ask me about the 7 months I starved on a severely limited 11-item diet, nursing my hyper-allergic child... "willpower" does not begin to describe this), but resigning to a lifetime of emotional misery is not good for the moms or the kids. Some couples can rise from the ashes of infidelity and build a happy and strong relationship again, others cannot... I try not to make absolute judgements regarding either... smile


Exactly!

kris
Posted by: babymama

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/29/06 10:56 PM

hi (ps-i've been a member before but 4got my login)
Anyways, to go along with path's last post: i don't even think many women don't really _realize_ there's a problem. they do but they are too eager/hung up on the idea of a relationship, diamond rings, weddings to want to face it - because facing it will require action ie to walk away from a problematic relationship. even during marriage, i don't think it's often for the sake of the kids. i think more often it's for the fantasy that we stay years in an objectionable situation (cheating, abuse, manipulation).

And in many cases it's hard to sympathize with victims of manipulation, infidelity (not of physical abuse -that's different case) because they choose to stay for the house, car, money, image etc than walk away into the scary world of freedom and starting over.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 09/30/06 06:39 AM

To qualify for once and for all, NO ONE is suggesting ANYONE stay in a relationship that is abusive or endangers your health although I have known couples that have managed to see these behaviors change and save their marriages too. And sicne the obvious definition has been a little oevrlooked in this thread, what is happiness anyway? From what I've seen in society, it looks like bitchin over minute things has reached an all time high! :rolleyes:

Like Babymama said, many people in todays society DO get caught up in the fantasy of marriage withot realizing all the work that geos into that and yes, forgiveness is a HUGE part of that.He hurt your feelings a few times and now you want a divorce? Where exactly is the backbone in that? He doesn't want the same thigns in life I want. Well duh, what 2 people are EXACTLY the same in this regard for the duration of a relationship/marraige?? He doesn't make me "happy" anymore or he took my happiness away?? Well guess what, it was NEVER HIS job to make YOU happy and people no matter how manupulative they are, can't emotionally take away form you what you didn't give them in the first place. People need to stop being lazy and create your own dam happiness!!! So yeah, I think folks "punking out" in marriage when the going gets a little rough, which LIFE invaribly does, are immature and selfish whether or not you have children. So call it judgemental or whatever, if the shoe fits....... However, I'm NOT talking about staying for the big houses, cars, and fancy vacations, I'm talking about actually doing WORK in marriage while providing family security for a child(ren) and if you can do that while driving a Benz and vacationing in Belize too, then whoo hoo!!!!

So sure, women often make the mistake of forgetting themselves in regards to family, however as a current grad student and future MD/PhD, I certainly don't espouse that viewpoint either. EVERY WOMAN needs to make sure that if the rug is suddenly snatched out from under them through death, divorce, or being traded in for a younger model with perkier boobs, they will land on their feet! I'm certainly a living example of women empowering themselves educationally and professionally, picking yourself up from your bootstraps after terminal illness, a near death expereince, AND being kicked out of school, kicking depressions a$$, but not at the expense of my family. It's not choosing my family over my own needs, it's KNOWING that a large part of who I am and my repsonsibilities as a parent (kids don't ask to be here), are directly linked to my role in my family unit, whatever that unit is.
Posted by: megboo

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/01/06 10:44 PM

I trust that my husband will not cheat. He was married once before and she cheated on him and it devastated him so he knows how it would affect me. I also trust that my father has never cheated on my mother. I don't know that for sure with either my husband or father, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Trust is a HUGE component of marriage, so in order to fulfill my vows and be a good wife, I have to trust that my husband loves me above all others, and the rest is on him.

If he did happen to cheat on me, I don't know for sure if I would head down the divorce road so quickly. A lot would depend on the circumstances. While I believe the man is ultimately responsible for his actions, the woman can "push" the relationship to escalate into something bad. I also think that it's way too easy to get a divorce in this country. Maybe if it were harder people would think more before they got married. Not to mention, cheating hurts more than your spouse, but your whole family!

As for cheating, sometimes men are just rotten and cheat no matter how sweet the wife is. Sometimes wives can be so cold and frigid that the husband cheats to have something. Not that it's right, but the relationship had problems before that!

Anyway, my husband and I are on the right path so far, and my parents are great role-models for us. My parent's lives haven't always been easy, and it would have been really easy for them to stray, but they love each other and the family they have. I have faith it will stay that way.
Posted by: Special-K

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 11:07 AM

Are any of you people who think "all men eventually cheat" married? How can you live with that? Are you unconcerned just waiting for the day he doesn't come home on time or are you one of those who constantly questions his loyalty every time a woman is within 100yds of him?

I'd be willing to bet there is a strong correlation between women who haven't experienced a faithful loving marriage and women who think all men are unfaithful.

Maybe you are the ones who want to believe something that isn't true. Does it make you feel better to think all men cheat?
Posted by: Striving2succeed

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 11:18 AM

I don't think all men cheat...
Posted by: Special-K

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 11:20 AM

I also believe that if you want a relationship without affairs.. communication is key. I think husbands and wives should talk about everything from their needs to the new little bimbo working in his office that leans a little to far over his desk when she talks to him. This gives him power over the situation and brings you closer together. Of course anyone with this type of relationship probably doesn't have to worry about an affair anyway.

Oh and Billy Graham also has the TVs removed from his hotel rooms so he won't be tempted to watch anything questionable, and he won't be alone with any women other than his wife not even in a car.
Posted by: Special-K

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 11:26 AM

Just to be clear i didn't mean that all unmarried women think men cheat. I'm not married yet.

I only meant that I would expect a correlation between married women and women who don't think all men cheat.

Why would you marry someone you expect to cheat on you?
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Special-K:
I'd be willing to bet there is a strong correlation between women who haven't experienced a faithful loving marriage and women who think all men are unfaithful.
Or maybe it's simply that married women who have/are experiencing a faithful, loving, happy, toe curling sex filled marriages and who have watched enough successful married men cheat (especially the wealthy ones), bases her feelings on that :rolleyes: . I've never had an abortion but I think to have one be dreadful for me. I have never lost a child but I think to loose one would be dreadful. I have never been a surgeon but I think to be one with a family would be insane. Do you really have to have experienced something to have strong feelings about it???

Quote:
Originally posted by Special-K:
Why would you marry someone you expect to cheat on you?
Well, quite simply for SOME of us, being a lesbian isn't a viable option for too mnay X-rated reasons to list here! :p But send me a PM, and I'll hook you up!! wink
Posted by: Special-K

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 06:36 PM

Oh you can definitely have an opinion. Like I said, I'm not married, but I obviously have an opinion about the topic. I guess I just don't understand how anyone could be happy being married to someone knowing at some undeclared point (or maybe many points) in the marriage he is DEFINITELY going to cheat on her.

Much to your chagrin I'm sure, even if I could believe EVERY man was a cheater, it wouldn't be enough for me to turn to women. I'd rather be single! :rotfl:

On a serious note, however, it does make me sad that some women believe this. I'd hate to have to think my own father was unfaithful to my mother or that every man I'd ever loved was unfaithful to me. That's terrible.
Posted by: Doc201X

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Special-K:
I guess I just don't understand how anyone could be happy being married to someone knowing at some undeclared point (or maybe many points) in the marriage he is DEFINITELY going to cheat on her.
The same way you can be happily married and at some undeclared moment, your family goes bankrupt and you end up homeless. Or you find out your husband has a secret problem with alcohol. Or you find out your husband is a homosexual cross dresser. Life happens. Most of what I'm suggesting in this thread is to 1) not place too much empahsis on ANYONE keeping you happy. Do that for yourself that way when bad things happen and they WILL, you'll deal with a from a position of strength rather than pity, 2) Affairs CAN be overcome with the right attitude.

My father WAS unfaithful to my mother but I don't think that makes him less of a human being nor do I think a man that can stay faithful is a saint. It has however, made me suspicious of men all my life. Given that background, I guess I should consider myself VERY fortunate that cheating/affairs have NEVER been a common or consistent theme in my life. I've seen affairs make women VERY bitter, but my glass has never been nor will ever be half-empty! :hyper:
Posted by: Special-K

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/02/06 08:36 PM

That's understandable. Hope I haven't offended you. I just think it is more likely that SOME men are faithful rather than ALL men aren't. But I guess no one will really ever know for sure.
Posted by: nbmom

Re: ALL men cheat?? - 10/04/06 11:04 PM

:twocents:

I think everyone, both men and women, are capable of cheating given the right circumstances. Statistically men are more likely to cheat, but I certainly don't buy the evolutionary excuse that it is because they want to spread their seed, if that were the case they wouldn't cheat with condoms, and as far as I know cavewomen weren't monogamous either and banged whomever they wanted....
I think the fact that men cheat more often is likely a product of our patriarchal society and the male sense of entitlement....

Personally I feel that anyone who thinks that infidelity will never be an issue in their marriage, is possibly in for a world of hurt. I am acutely aware that it could happen someday, which is why as other people mentioned my husband and i will 'guard' our marriage, be careful of our relationships with the opposite sex, and keep our relationship as awesome as possible.....

Honestly, in my marriage I view myself as more likely to cheat....my husband is extremely loyal and came from a good family, me on the other hand had a cheating/absentee father and was starved for male attention, and although i haven't cheated physically, I have been in love with two people at the same time and (not during my relationship with dh) and I remember how hard it was to restrain myself and recognize that if I developed a close emotional relationship with a male, than its possible to be tempted and develop feelings.


This thread is heated so i will clearly state....I am just putting my Opinion out into the cosmos, cause I have enjoyed reading through this thread and people's viewpoints.